post tenebras lux

I was going to add that George W Bush is actually a japanese-built android, based on a clever synthetics coat plastered on top of a long forgotten prototype for that robotic dog Sony used to sell.

But I didn't want to insult the japanese.

Go on, perform an autopsy on him/it and prove me wrong/right.

spin

(There's no need to shout my name.)

I'm not an atheist. If you have trouble with a synoptic indication of something I will happily flesh out, why don't you ask politely instead of mislabeling me? I usually don't say things unless I think I can marshall the evidence to support it.

You can of course read the site analyses of those archaeologists who worked on various near eastern sites. For example, Leonard Woolley found signs of flooding in Mesopotamia, though Kathleen Kenyon found no sign of flooding at Jericho (the absence here is meaningful). It's not strange that Woolley found signs of flooding in Mesopotamia: the Tigris and Euphrates flooded badly at times. Without such rivers there was no flooding at Jericho.

The Egyptian civilization was flourishing at the time reputed to be that of the flood, yet there was no evidence of flooding outside the range of the regular Nile flooding -- and the absence is meaningful here too. In fact there is no reports or signs of any flooding which broke the continuous occupation of the Nile valley civilisation.

There's lots more evidence that there was no universal flood, but is it worth my while to go the effort of producing it, when you give signs that you aren't interested?

This is a woeful misrepresentation from a badly prepared defence hack. When the prosecution gives a preliminary summary, the defence should wait for the evidence.

Now that you have a little, you might like to interact with it so that I know if you need more.

Sounds like your sort of judge.

I hope your client doesn't pay for your services. If he isn't, he's getting what he paid for it.


spin

Gregg

Actually, you just described Howard Dean.

Jack the Bodiless

Tony, I shall revisit my post #5 in this thread, re-list my 14 historical inaccuracies, and give a brief mention of the sort of evidence that demonstrates the falsehood of the Bible on each point. Not as a "proof", but rather a guide: a pointer to where you might find out more, if you want to.

...Because that's a pretty significant caveat. I cannot force you to investigate these claims: but, if you do investigate them sincerely, your religion will be shredded as a result. Is this what you want?

1. No Genesis creation.
You're already an Old-Earth Creationist, so I won't dwell on proofs that the Earth is old. However, humanity is much more than 6000 years old (old cave paintings and suchlike), and we evolved from (other) apes, being closely related to chimpanzees (hominid fossil record, DNA, endogenous retroviruses, pseudogenes etc).

2. No Noachian Flood.
The survival of Egypt's "Old Kingdom", and the total lack of all the massive geological evidence that a recent worldwide inundation would inevitably leave behind (massive runoff channels, massive water erosion, total disruption of Greenland and Antarctic ice-sheet layers, and so forth).

3. No Tower of Babel (no change in written records after the "confusion of languages").
Pretty self-exlanatory, this. No sign of any pre-Babel "common language" in written records, no sign of any post-Babel "confusion of languages" towards the end of the second millennium BC (the time of Babel).

4. No Exodus.
No trace of the movement of several million people through the Sinai desert, no trace of their supposed encampment at Kadesh Barnea for many years. Where are the latrines, the corpses of those who must have died during that time, and so forth?

5. No Conquest of Caanan.
The Hebrews are Caananites. Their language evolved from Caananite (after the supposed Exodus), and their religion evolved from Caananite polytheism. We know this from Caananite records (notably the Ugaritic texts).

6. No "Golden Age" of Solomon.
This "great empire" was never mentioned in the records of other surrounding civilizations, who barely noticed the existence of Israel and Judah.

7. Failure of Ezekiel's "Tyre Prophecy".
Ezekiel falsely predicted that Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon would take and permanently destroy Tyre. But Tyre survived Nebby's 13-year siege. Apologists have sought to cut this prophecy into 2 parts and have Alexander fulfil the second part centuries later (as he DID take Tyre), but this merely creates two failures where there was previously one: Nebby failed to take Tyre as prophesied, Alex failed to permanently destroy Tyre as prophesied.

8. Failure of Ezekiel's "Egypt Prophecy".
After the failure of the Tyre prophecy, Ezekiel promised Egypt to Nebby as compensation. Nebby was to ransack Egypt so thoroughly that it would be uninhabited for 40 years. Historical records show that this did not happen.

9. Failure of the "Babylon Prophecy" (Isaiah and Jeremiah).
Both of these prophesied that the Medes would take and permanently destroy Babylon. But the Medes were conquered by the Persians, who then went on to peacefully take (and not destroy) Babylon.

10. Numerous historical inaccuracies in Daniel.
While Daniel was supposedly written in the 6th century BC, it was actually written four centuries later and gets many details wrong.

11. Herod/Quirinius issue (Luke's Jesus born a decade after Matthew's Jesus).
Matthew's Jesus was born in Herod's time: Luke's Jesus was born at least a decade later, when Quirinius was governor of the region (as confirmed by various historical sources).

12. No "Massacre of the Innocents".
We have accounts from Herod's enemies, describing his various "crimes". The Massacre is not among them. It was invented by Matthew to draw a parallel between Jesus and Moses (who also supposedly survived an infant massacre, by Pharaoh).

13. No "zombie invasion of Jerusalem" or "supernatural darkness" (easily-noticed large-scale miracles).
Again, pretty self-explanatory. The dead supposedly rose from their graves and wandered about in Jerusalem, and there was supposedly a supernatural darkness for several hours: numerous historians in the vicinity failed to notice these, as did all the gospel authors except one: obviously invented.

14. No return of Jesus within "this generation".
There are numerous NT references to the imminent Second Coming: within one generation. Didn't happen, hence the "a day is as a thousand years to God" excuse, and so forth.

Gundulf

Would need to know what his standard of "historically accurate" is exactly, but it is perhaps easiest to demonstrate with two accounts of the same event that are presented in different chronological orders, e.g., the temptation story, etc.

EarlOfLade

I don't claim god exist. You claim he does, you provide the evidence.

Koyaanisqatsi

Just wanted to point out that there couldn't be a "universal" flood. Nor could there be a global flood, but at least that term makes sense.

Gamera

The point is there is no "historical" text from this period that is historically accurate. Tacitus, for instance believed in the Phoenix.

So it's unclear what standard you are using.

TonyN

Well I can tell by the plethora of posts here that I will have to wait for David B to have a civil conversation. Sorry folks but some of you folks don't rate at the same level with David. There were a couple of decent posts, however, Julian's post was good. hatsoff was pretty decent but, again, just hearsay, but it didn't have that tinge of rancor so often attending most atheist's posts.

Anyway, we'll just wait for David. I appreciate your thoughts.

DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR

TonyN, David B is over in the God is love thread, just so you know. I don't think he cares about this thread.