The Evil One

You forgot "phonetically" -- there's a big difference between an aspirated voiceless plosive and a fricative, just to mention the most obvious thing!

The Evil One

Dude, you got the transliterations of kappa and chi mixed up. Let it go. It's no shame to be unfamiliar with standard transliteration, if Greek's your native language, but arguing from this confusion that jgibson is therefore ignorant isn't going to do your argument any favours.

Amaleq13

New Atheist,

Please permit me another unsolicited word to the wise. While I suspect there may not be any additional room, you might want to take a peek at Dr. Gibson's Curriculum Vitae before you place any more feet in your mouth.


Personal attacks are prohibited but also generally serve only to make the attacker look bad. This is only more true when the attacks are utterly devoid of any connection to reality.

To All Involved,

Please stick to a discussion of the evidence. Specifically, the evidence relevant to the OP. While I thoroughly enjoy a pedantic squabble about grammar as much as the next guy, it would be preferable that the squabble pertain to the thread.

Thanks in advance,

Amaleq13 aka Doug

TonyN

Dear New Atheist,
Maybe it was an accident on your part but αιωνας is not equal to nor translated as αιων. αιωνας was not written as αιων. αιωνας is the plural form i.e., "eons," and αιων is singular i.e., "eon".

jgibson000

Where are you folks getting your Greek fonts? Are they something that is in the "fonts" window in the IIDB composer?

Jeffrey Gibson

jgibson000

Doug,

I appreciate your pointing out to NA (sheesh) that, contrary to what he thinks, there is some reason to say that I do indeed have some idea of what I'm talking about in this thread.

But in the end, the question of whether or not what I have said here has any merit and/or shows, as NA claims, that I am unfamiliar with Ancient Greek, has to be decided on some basis other than the fact that I am credentialed.

After all, being credentialed is no guarantee against making mistakes. And, more importantly, we've seen people here who do boast of -- and apparently think it important (and somehow decisive) when arguing a point to let us all know -- how credentialed they are, do some excruciatingly bad analysis of Greek texts.

Nevertheless, I feel bound to point out that the CV you have referred NA to is almost 7 years old and is out of date vis a vis my publication record. If you want to see a current one, I can provide it.

Perhaps you'd do me the kindness of letting E.D. know this. He certainly seems to be unaware (if not disdainful) of, or thinks himself above and/or not bound by, this prohibition in his last few messages to me.

Jeffrey Gibson

TonyN

I use some Greek texts I have already installed on my computer and just copy and paste.

TonyN

Folks, the main point of this thread is concerning αιων and its adjectival form: αἰώνιον.

The main point of this thread is concerning whether or not the adjective means "eternal." It does not.

There is no eternal torment. God will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all mankind (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6) therefore there cannot be eternal torment either linguistically nor theologically.

jgibson000

Does αιων have an adjectival form? Or is αἰώνιον an adjective that shares a root with αιων?

As I suspected. You work from the principle that the meaning(s) of a word is determined by, and has to cohere with, dogma.

Leaving aside the question of how methodologically execrable this principle is for determining the meaning(s) that a word has, let me ask: Are you sure the dogma you derive from 1 Tim. 2:4-6 is sound? That is to say, are you sure that the theological "truth" you think is asserted there (i.e., that the god of Israel will not allow any human not to be saved) is actually what the text asserts, especially given the use of QELW in v. 4?

JG

DBT

It appears that it is difficult to refute your point concerning αιων and its adjective. But the doctrine of universal salvation still doesn't seem to fit into the overall context of the NT. The overall impression one gets from reading the NT - the character of this God, the fall, original sin, damnation, etc - paints quite a different picture to what you are proposing. So apart from the problem with the interpretion of a single word, there still appears to be a contradiction in Theology.