Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ebonmuse · 03-02-2005, 10:42 AM

To expand on Diogenes' comment about how most of the cited OT verses aren't actually prophecies, let's look at one. That page claims Psalms 22:16 is a prophecy of "hands and feet pierced". Very well, let's see the actual text of that verse, along with a bit of context:

Quote:

22:1
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
22:2
O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
...
22:11
Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
22:12
Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
22:13
They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
22:14
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
22:15
My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
22:16
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
22:17
I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
22:18
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
22:19
But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
22:20
Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

So, even assuming the "pierced" translation is accurate (which I've heard disputed), it's obvious that this set of verses is not a prophecy. It is not predicting events that will happen to someone else in the future. Rather, it is a description of things that are happening now, to the author, and the sense of suffering and distress he feels as a result of them. But in the apologist mind, the fact that these verses sound superficially similar to verses from the Gospels is immediately taken as an example of a miraculous prophecy. That's like saying the authors of history books on World War I must have been divinely inspired because their "prophecies" about Germany starting a war in Europe were fulfilled by the occurrence of World War II.

In reality, what's going on here is quite obvious. The OT verses are not "prophecies" of the NT verses; rather, the authors of the NT simply went back to the OT, picked out various verses which they liked or which supported the message they wanted to convey, lifted them out of their original contexts, and wove them together into a new story. This technique is called midrash, and it is a common Jewish method of exegesis. Many of the other verses on that supposed list of "prophecies" can be explained in exactly the same way.

Ebonmuse · 03-02-2005, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenshu

In Jeremiah 32:37-41, the prophet said the people of Israel would return to their homeland. Jeremiah lived during a time when the Babylonians were forcing the Jews out of their homeland about 2600 years ago. Many Jews later returned but were forced out again, by the Romans, about 1900 years ago. During the past 200 years, millions of exiled Jews have returned to Israel from countries all over the world.

Has it occurred to this person that the reason the Jews returned to Israel is because the Bible said they would? This "prophecy" is self-fulfilling.

Quote:

In Isaiah 35:1-2, the prophet said that although Israel would become a desolate land, its deserts would one day bloom again. This Bible verse foreshadows the restoration of Israel that has been taking place since the early 1900s. Millions of Jews have returned to their ancient homeland and have innovated sophisticated farming techniques and extensive reforestation programs to convert parched desert into productive farmland. More than 200 million trees have been planted in Israel since 1900, according to the Jewish National Fund.

The ability of the apologists to ignore context when it suits them is breathtaking. Read the verses preceding these and you'll see that this is talking about God's reestablishing his kingdom after the Day of the Lord - i.e., the apocalypse - during which "the land thereof shall become burning pitch" (34:9), "the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll" (34:4), and the land "shall be soaked with blood" (34:7) from the mass slaughter of unbelievers God plans to carry out. I haven't noticed any of those things happening.

Quote:

In Leviticus 26:3, 7-8, the Bible says that the army of Israel would have a supernatural power to prevail during times of conflict, if the people are obedient to the Lord. This Bible passage says that 5 people would be able to chase away 100 people, and that 100 would be able to chase away 10,000. Is there any proof to this incredible claim? Judge for yourself:

Has it occurred to this apologist that since these wars took place in the Christian era, during which time all Jews were supposed to recognize Jesus as the messiah and convert, the Israelis were actually not being "obedient to the Lord" according to his own belief system?

The lesson here should be that most of these supposed prophecies are very easy to debunk. Just apply a bit of reason, and make sure to read the text yourself to see if it's really talking about what the apologist says it's talking about.

spin · 03-02-2005, 11:50 AM

Ps 22:16

1. KY SBBWNY KLBYM
For surround me dogs,

2. (DT MR(YM
(the) assembly of the wicked

3. HQYPWNY K)RY
wound me like a lion

4. YDY WRGLY
my hands and feet.

It is only part #3 which is a problem.

The verb NQP has two different meanings, 1) strike, wound; 2) go around, encompass. (It's a difficult verb in form because it is "irregular", losing the initial N.)

The noun )RY means "lion", while the particle K- indicates "like".

It is very hard to read anything about "piercing", though Christians read K)RY as somehow related to the verb KRH, meaning "to dig", which can be stretched with a big dose of imagination to mean, "dig into" as in "penetrate", hence "pierce", though there is no other example to illuminate the approach to the word.

One thus tries to read it "the encompass me (and) dig [ie pierce] my hands and feet", though one would need to have the "and" stated in Hebrew, otherwise I can see no hope to force the grammatical structure necessary.

spin

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03-02-2005, 11:50 AM	#23
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Ps 22:16 1. KY SBBWNY KLBYM For surround me dogs, 2. (DT MR(YM (the) assembly of the wicked 3. HQYPWNY K)RY wound me like a lion 4. YDY WRGLY my hands and feet. It is only part #3 which is a problem. The verb NQP has two different meanings, 1) strike, wound; 2) go around, encompass. (It's a difficult verb in form because it is "irregular", losing the initial N.) The noun )RY means "lion", while the particle K- indicates "like". It is very hard to read anything about "piercing", though Christians read K)RY as somehow related to the verb KRH, meaning "to dig", which can be stretched with a big dose of imagination to mean, "dig into" as in "penetrate", hence "pierce", though there is no other example to illuminate the approach to the word. One thus tries to read it "the encompass me (and) dig [ie pierce] my hands and feet", though one would need to have the "and" stated in Hebrew, otherwise I can see no hope to force the grammatical structure necessary. spin

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