Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 06-26-2010, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flux Æon

a letter writer uses the Bible to support his contention that Jews lived in "the Holy Land" since "Biblical Times".

It could depend on what the writer considers "biblical times," but I'm not aware that anybody contends otherwise. Not even the Bible claims that Israelites were the first people to live there. What the writer is probably trying to defend is the notion that the Israelites conquered Canaan after spending a few centuries enslaved in Egypt. The current consensus of archeologists is that that is almost certainly untrue. The people who formed the kingdoms of Judah and Israel were people who had always lived there. Jewish culture evolved in situ from Canaanite culture.

Anat · 06-27-2010, 08:34 AM

Quote:

The current consensus of archeologists is that that is almost certainly untrue. The people who formed the kingdoms of Judah and Israel were people who had always lived there. Jewish culture evolved in situ from Canaanite culture.

However there are several hypotheses regarding how this happened, which population of Canaanites the early Israelites and Judahites came from and what process led to their formation of their own identities.

Doug Shaver · 06-28-2010, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

However there are several hypotheses regarding how this happened, which population of Canaanites the early Israelites and Judahites came from and what process led to their formation of their own identities.

That's understandable, considering that there wasn't a lot of historiography going on in that part of the world during that period. Or at least, none that anybody has found yet.

semiopen · 06-28-2010, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flux Æon

a letter writer uses the Bible to support his contention that Jews lived in "the Holy Land" since "Biblical Times".

It could depend on what the writer considers "biblical times," but I'm not aware that anybody contends otherwise. Not even the Bible claims that Israelites were the first people to live there. What the writer is probably trying to defend is the notion that the Israelites conquered Canaan after spending a few centuries enslaved in Egypt. The current consensus of archeologists is that that is almost certainly untrue. The people who formed the kingdoms of Judah and Israel were people who had always lived there. Jewish culture evolved in situ from Canaanite culture.

There is also a question of exactly what a Jew is. If we take a generic Jew today, it is not clear that his ancestery is from Judea or Palestine. It is probably safe to say that some Jews came from Judea/Palestine.

Also, it is not clear who the classes were. For example, the people deported in the Babylonian exile were the upper class. It is not clear what happened in Palestine in around 600 CE, but if anyone left, it was again the upper class
The lower classes remained in Palestine.

Anat · 06-28-2010, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Also, it is not clear who the classes were. For example, the people deported in the Babylonian exile were the upper class. It is not clear what happened in Palestine in around 600 CE, but if anyone left, it was again the upper class
The lower classes remained in Palestine.

And only the areas immediately around Jerusalem show any depopulation at the time.

Clivedurdle · 06-28-2010, 10:46 AM

Rivers of Babylon the result of moving two coach loads of people?

I suppose it is possible!

Anat · 06-28-2010, 11:13 AM

Clivedurdle, think of the various exiled leaderships of conquered European states that stayed in Britain during WWII. Now imagine them in captivity in Berlin.

yalla · 06-29-2010, 04:01 AM

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...page&q&f=false

"THe Canaanites" Jonathan Tubb.

There are 3 reviews of this scholarly book at this site, in the third of them, by "Shikambu" there is this comment:
"The author posits that the Israelites were in fact a sub-set of Canaanite culture and many parallels are drawn in the book on this point."

I read the book some time ago and found it interesting.
My memory [such as it is, tells me the author is from the British Museum and has strong credentials.

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06-28-2010, 10:46 AM	#16
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Rivers of Babylon the result of moving two coach loads of people? I suppose it is possible!

06-28-2010, 11:13 AM	#17
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Clivedurdle, think of the various exiled leaderships of conquered European states that stayed in Britain during WWII. Now imagine them in captivity in Berlin.

06-29-2010, 04:01 AM	#18
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...page&q&f=false "THe Canaanites" Jonathan Tubb. There are 3 reviews of this scholarly book at this site, in the third of them, by "Shikambu" there is this comment: "The author posits that the Israelites were in fact a sub-set of Canaanite culture and many parallels are drawn in the book on this point." I read the book some time ago and found it interesting. My memory [such as it is, tells me the author is from the British Museum and has strong credentials.

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