Freethought & Rationalism Archive

purple_kathryn · 04-21-2007, 07:47 AM

okay but can we still form a cha cha cha train?

Roger Pearse · 04-21-2007, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~M~

Is limbo a place of punishment?

No. In Dante's Inferno the first circle of hell is limbo, a pleasant place where the good pagans dwell, who did not know Christ but followed their own creeds faithfully.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Solo · 04-21-2007, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There is nothing in the Bible about Limbo. I suspect this thread would do better in GRD, merged with its friend, but I will wait for objections.

Actually, Toto, I think it's a legit topic here, as the concept grows from the internal conundrum of the original/first sin which is very much present in the texts.

Here's an excerpt from Catholic Encyclopedia on limbo

Quote:

II. LIMBUS INFANTIUM
The New Testament contains no definite statement of a positive kind regarding the lot of those who die in original sin without being burdened with grievous personal guilt. But, by insisting on the absolute necessity of being "born again of water and the Holy Ghost" (John 3:5) for entry into the kingdom of Heaven (see BAPTISM, subtitle Necessity of Baptism), Christ clearly enough implies that men are born into this world in a state of sin, and St. Paul's teaching to the same effect is quite explicit (Romans 5:12 sqq.). On the other hand, it is clear from Scripture and Catholic tradition that the means of regeneration provided for this life do not remain available after death, so that those dying unregenerate are eternally excluded from the supernatural happiness of the beatific vision (John 9:4, Luke 12:40, 16:19 sqq., 2 Corinthians 5:10; see also APOCATASTASIS). The question therefore arises as to what, in the absence of a clear positive revelation on the subject, we ought in conformity with Catholic principles to believe regarding the eternal lot of such persons. Now it may confidently be said that, as the result of centuries of speculation on the subject, we ought to believe that these souls enjoy and will eternally enjoy a state of perfect natural happiness; and this is what Catholics usually mean when they speak of the limbus infantium, the "children's limbo."

I have highlighted the last sentence as an example of a typical Catholic dodge. The concept of limbo developed largely in reaction to Augustine's brutal condemnation of unbaptized infants to hell. "Limbus", means "the hem" or "edge", meaning of hell, and obviously it was not designed as a happy place as the church is now saying. It was at best safe place to keep innocents from theological fanatics.
The formula of "natural happiness" derives from Thomas Aquinas who used it to openly defy the concept. Limbo could not be thrown out because of Augustine's stature. One thing really surprises me, though, in the conservative's pope backing out of an important Catholic concept (it has been argued that the removal of limbo destroys the rationale of infant baptism since there is no longer any meaningful divide between baptized and non-baptized babies) when it appears there is a theological formula available which could have saved the questionable instituion without injuring infants (and non-Christians): Only God knows the length of soul's "suspension in limbo" and its effect is without a doubt predicated by the soul's innocence.

Jiri

Chili · 04-21-2007, 09:02 AM

Heaven is a state of mind wherein both the old and the new are known (kind of like entering Rome on two donkeys). In Revelation it is called the Alpha and Omega with Alpha being that was ours in the beginning to which our own contributions from Alpha to Omega are added by means of Ascension and subsequent Assumption.

The Alpha here is that which we intuitly are by way of tradition as the [non-rational] incarnate son of man unto which we must be baptised before we can be born again of water and spirit for which communion with the saints in heaven and fellowship with believers on earth is a prerequisite.

The major premiss here is that heaven is for Catholis only and so limbo will be the state of mind wherein we rely on our limbic system without any guidance towards the Hypostatic Union that brings about eternal life.

Chili · 04-21-2007, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~M~

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc

Since I know virtually nothing about Catholicism, I thought the Pope was dismissing the style of dance called limbo. :redface: Anyhow, does anyone know of the theological backing for and against such the theological limbo?

That is easy to do because limbo is not for Catholics but is specifically for non-Catholics. This kind of means that only Catholic water will do the trick.

Chili · 04-21-2007, 09:45 AM

. . . of course, if heaven is for Catholics only hell could not be for Catholics who are either hawt or cool but never scorched. I am thinking here of Mabeth's line "we've scorched the snake, not killed it. She'll close and be herself whilst we remain subject to the malice of her former tooth."

Chili · 04-21-2007, 09:48 AM

BTW, in Netherland's limbo is called "voorgeborgte" which can easly be translated as 'frontal lobe' or something like that.

Angra Mainyu · 04-21-2007, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

Limbo is the in-between place for people who are unbaptized but without sin. I guess the good Samaritan would end up there? Agnostics too, I imagine. And babies who died without being baptized.

Now these people have a chance at heaven.

True, but then again, the Pope doesn't say that they certainly go to Heaven - he just has reasons to hope so.

So, as far as they (i.e., the RCC) knows (and even it may be less likely) the people in question might end up in Hell as well. :devil: :devil1: :devil3:

Chili · 04-21-2007, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu

True, but then again, the Pope doesn't say that they certainly go to Heaven - he just has reasons to hope so.

So, as far as they (i.e., the RCC) knows (and even it may be less likely) the people in question might end up in Hell as well. :devil: :devil1: :devil3:

No, if heaven is religion specific hell must be as well . . . or next you'll be dragging Buddhists into heaven.

As Catholic it is impossible to go to hell unless one is a Dissenter and no longer Catholic as qualified by the Syllabus of Errors.

aa5874 · 04-22-2007, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~M~

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc

Does it take hundreds of years for God to reveal his truth to the Church? I wonder what other fallacies will be admitted.

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04-21-2007, 07:47 AM	#11
purple_kathryn Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 3,382	okay but can we still form a cha cha cha train?

04-21-2007, 09:02 AM	#14
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Heaven is a state of mind wherein both the old and the new are known (kind of like entering Rome on two donkeys). In Revelation it is called the Alpha and Omega with Alpha being that was ours in the beginning to which our own contributions from Alpha to Omega are added by means of Ascension and subsequent Assumption. The Alpha here is that which we intuitly are by way of tradition as the [non-rational] incarnate son of man unto which we must be baptised before we can be born again of water and spirit for which communion with the saints in heaven and fellowship with believers on earth is a prerequisite. The major premiss here is that heaven is for Catholis only and so limbo will be the state of mind wherein we rely on our limbic system without any guidance towards the Hypostatic Union that brings about eternal life.

04-21-2007, 09:45 AM	#16
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	. . . of course, if heaven is for Catholics only hell could not be for Catholics who are either hawt or cool but never scorched. I am thinking here of Mabeth's line "we've scorched the snake, not killed it. She'll close and be herself whilst we remain subject to the malice of her former tooth."

04-21-2007, 09:48 AM	#17
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	BTW, in Netherland's limbo is called "voorgeborgte" which can easly be translated as 'frontal lobe' or something like that.

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