archibald

It would be out of character for me to say that. And now that you bring it to my attention, I have heard a rumour that there may be as many as 500 interpolators operating at this forum. :frown:

If you mean inconsistent between verses 1-2 and 3, or inconsistent with Galatians, or some other time he apparently uses that word, then in what way? Or do you mean inconsistent in some other way? I'm honestly not being argumentative for arguments sake. I obviously just don't see it (yet). Why couldn't he be claiming to have received it from Jesus (for instance)? Wouldn't this actually be consistent of him, rather than inconsistent?

Can I just ask one tangental thing? I've noticed there seem to be times when scholarly consensus gets quoted as support, and other times when, well, it seems like they mightn't be trusted to sit the right way on a toilet. Are we, er, sure we're always making objective distinctions between the two scenarios?

Or to put it another way, and I honestly don't know the answer to this, do the same scholars being cited now, or the majority of scholars generally, think it was an interpolation?

Iskander

3880. paralambanó 3881 >>

________________________________________
to receive from
Original Word: παραλαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: paralambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (par-al-am-ban'-o)
Short Definition: I take, receive
Definition: I take from, receive from, or: I take to, receive (apparently not used of money), admit, acknowledge; I take with me.

3880 paralambánō (from 3844 /pará, "from close-alongside" and 2983 /lambánō, "aggressively take") – to take (receive) by showing strong personal initiative.

Word Origin
from para and lambanó
Definition
to receive from
NASB Word Usage
receive (3), received (12), take (5), taken (5), takes (1), takes along (1), taking (1), took (16), took...along (1), took...aside (2), took along (3).
NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries
Copyright © 1981, 1998 by The Lockman Foundation
All rights reserved Lockman.org

receive, take unto, with.
From para and lambano; to receive near, i.e. Associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy, to assume an office; figuratively, to learn -- receive, take (unto, with).
see GREEK para
see GREEK lambano
παράλαβε (paralabe) − 3 Occurrences
παραλαβεῖν (paralabein) − 1 Occurrence
παραλαβόντα (paralabonta) − 1 Occurrence
παραλαβόντες (paralabontes) − 2 Occurrences
παραλαβὼν (paralabōn) − 10 Occurrences
παραλαμβάνει (paralambanei) − 8 Occurrences
παραλαμβάνεται (paralambanetai) − 2 Occurrences
παραλαμβάνοντες (paralambanontes) − 1 Occurrence
παραλαμβάνουσιν (paralambanousin) − 1 Occurrence
παραλημφθήσεται (paralēmphthēsetai) − 2 Occurrences
παραλήμψομαι (paralēmpsomai) − 1 Occurrence
παρέλαβεν (parelaben) − 4 Occurrences
παρέλαβες (parelabes) − 1 Occurrence
παρελάβετε (parelabete) − 5 Occurrences
παρέλαβον (parelabon) − 6 Occurrences
παρελάβοσαν (parelabosan) − 1 Occurrence




Ban (12 Occurrences)
... strongsnumbers.com/greek2/353.htm - 7k. 3880. paralambano -- to receive from ...
to receive from. Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration ...
//topicalbible.org/b/ban.htm - 34k
Took (8314 Occurrences)
... left none remaining ... biblethesaurus.com/s/survivor.htm - 12k. 3880.
paralambano -- to receive from ... and lambano Definition ...
//topicalbible.org/t/took.htm - 31k
Assume (2 Occurrences)
... assume a (law, practice). ... strongsnumbers.com/greek2/3543.htm - 8k. 3880.
paralambano -- to receive from ... From para and lambano ...
//topicalbible.org/a/assume.htm - 27k
Intimate (12 Occurrences)
... relationship" (Gesenius). Just ... //strongsnumbers.com/greek2/3962.htm -
8k. 3880. paralambano -- to receive from ... From para ...
//topicalbible.org/i/intimate.htm - 31k
Receive (350 Occurrences)
... strongsnumbers.com/greek2/5264.htm - 7k. 3880. paralambano -- to receive from ...
to receive from. Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration ...
//topicalbible.org/r/receive.htm - 61k
Admit (8 Occurrences)
... contain, go, have ... //strongsnumbers.com/greek2/5562.htm - 7k. 3880.
paralambano -- to receive from ... ban'-o) Short Definition ...
//topicalbible.org/a/admit.htm - 31k
Associate (20 Occurrences)
... worker, associate, helper. ... /strongsnumbers.com/greek2/4904.htm - 7k.
3880. paralambano -- to receive from ... From para and ...
//topicalbible.org/a/associate.htm - 39k
Familiar (35 Occurrences)
... but not necessarily). ... strongsnumbers.com/greek2/3850.htm - 7k. 3880.
paralambano -- to receive from ... From para and lambano ...
//topicalbible.org/f/familiar.htm - 46k
Acknowledge (61 Occurrences)
... refuse to acknowledge). ... strongsnumbers.com/greek2/114.htm - 8k. 3880.
paralambano -- to receive from ... o) Short Definition ...
//topicalbible.org/a/acknowledge.htm - 48k
Takes (380 Occurrences)
... false husband: and he who ... biblethesaurus.com/p/puts.htm - 36k. 3880.
paralambano -- to receive from ... Word Origin from para and ...
//topicalbible.org/t/takes.htm - 59k
Along (500 Occurrences)
... something . It occurs four times in the NT. ... /strongsnumbers.com/greek2/3911.
htm - 7k. 3880. paralambano -- to receive from ... Origin ...
//topicalbible.org/a/along.htm - 58k
Taking (445 Occurrences)
... Word Origin from sun and paralambano Definition to take along with NASB Word Usage
along (1), take (1), take...along (1), taking along (1), taking...along (1 ...
//topicalbible.org/t/taking.htm - 61k

http://174.120.72.66/search?q=parala...td&btnG=Search
I got this from biblios for the word: paralambano

spin

There are two works used by the site. The first is the frivolous strongs which you should be shot for using, but the second is Thayer, which gets to the issue in point 2.b, but looking at the references, you find only one source for the non teacher-pupil relation, namely 1 Cor 15:3, so you are supporting your preferred significance from a source that supplies what we are debating about as its source.

And if you look at Paul, he is consistent in 1 Cor 15:1, Gal 1:9, 12, Phil 4:9, 1 Thes 2:13 and 1 Thes 4:1. The writer of 1 Cor 11:23 uses it correctly as does 2 Thes 3:6. The only person who doesn't is the writer of 1 Cor 15:3.

spin

If anyone checked out this reference, they'd find a very extensive discussion of the verb. And one interesting reference is to Plato's Theaetetus, 198b, in which Socrates says, "And we say that when anyone transmits them he teaches, and when anyone receives [παραλαμβανοντα] them he learns, and when anyone, by having acquired them, has them in that aviary of ours, he knows them."

This shows what classical Greek understood by the term and that is analogous to all but one use of παραλαμβανω, the problem.

TedM

Why? And, what do you think of Iskander's post?


It looks like my view is possible. Are you conceding that it is possible?

Yes, that one reference would be the one place Paul says he got basic info about Jesus, including appearances to others. So, the other references are completely irrelevant to the question of what the word means because the context is different! To be clear, if the 'gospel' in Gal 1 is not referring to the already known claims of Jesus having lived died and been resurrected, and it is not referring to appearances to others, then Gal 1 doesn't help you.

Don't you also claim 1 Cor 11:23+ (the Lord's Supper account) is an interpolation too? As such you are claiming that an interpolator had Paul receive the Lord's Supper account from God and not people? If so, may I ask when you think that particular interpolation occurred, and why both of your interpolated passages are weird: 11:23 doesn't have Paul getting the Lord's supper from the tradition passed along by disciples, and 15:3 uses the wrong word for Paul getting the tradition from others. What's the matter with those interpolators, spin? How can they be so stupid?

archibald

Ok. Now I'm even more confused. :]

When I look through the first few in the 'receive - 350 occurrences' category (my bold, above), it takes me first to examples in Matthew, and though I only started looking for the Greek word in these cases, and indeed in a few other non-Matthew ones I sampled, it didn't seem to be Paralambano, or anything related to it, in any of the first few that I started looking at, but a different word altogether.

Now, for want of an online alternative, and not knowing perhaps whether the source I am using for my Greek is a reliable one or not, I have been using this site:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...reek_Index.htm

which, upon reading the 'info' section on 'NT Greek' does seem to claim to be using the Koine Greek of the time, and indeed (I have been assuming) of the manuscripts which are extant. Or maybe there are no extant manuscripts which go back to the 'appropriate/original' Greek, and the matter is open to speculation?

So, I am left wondering why the Biblios site seems to suggest something different?

So, if it turns out that, say, Biblios is incorrect (or less likely to be correct, or there is no real way of knowing) and, say, the site I was using is correct (or likely to be so for some reason) then if I am leaning one way or the other, I am at the moment leaning towards thinking that the word is in fact normally reserved for 'transferred from master to pupil', or 'learned by pupil'.

My problem then, if that is correct, would be seeing how it is not plausible that the epistle verse means 'recieved from Jesus', which is a slightly different issue. And I'm not pursuing a particular agenda here, just looking for a good explanation, not least because, if I do assume 'Paul' meant, 'received from Jesus', then that seems to open up a wider issue, and not necessarily one which supports HJ (which I have made no secret is my leaning) since it would imply that he is saying (because of the kais/ands in verses 4 and 5 of 1 Cor 15) that he also heard about all the witnessing 'from Jesus'. And I would be left to consider that the 'receive' is Paul, but the witnesses may be a later addition, or alternatively, why is Paul apparently/possibly fibbing again, and this time not about only his 'gospel'?

If my thinking is awry here, I am hoping that someone will correct me. :]

Another part of my confusion is not seeing why a later interpolater might insert it either. And I am not helped in this by seeing that when we get on to this, one person says they think '2nd C' and another thinks 'pre-Matthew', so I am wondering if there is a conclusive case, rather than a speculative number of possibilities, and if there is no objective way to decide between possibilities, then......?

TedM

What would be really helpful would be a clear example of how 'received' was used at the time for transferring a tradition from one person to another. IF there are no examples then I would have to conclude that those who suggest it is ONLY a master-pupil relationship have no basis for such a claim.

spin

Yes, I did.

What exactly makes you think it is possible, TedM? Please be specific.

You're not specific enough, but if you mean Gal 1:9, you didn't read closely enough and if you mean Gal 1:12, well, you didn't read closely enough. For the latter what Paul did receive was a revelation of Jesus.

No, real shavings for you here.

Does that change the usage of the verb?

The text actually reads, "For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you".

:hysterical:

archibald

Me, I have been wondring this too. As far as I can see, all the 350 'receives' cited in Biblios are from the NT, and (using my 'Greek-English' site) none of these, so far, seem to be Paralambretta, or whatever it is. :]

I'm wondering if the ones we are looking for are in the OT. I'm going to check now, bar someone telling me I am using a dodgy site, or that for lack of 1st C manuscripts, the actual word 'Paul' used is up for grabs.

Of course, if they aren't in the NT, that seems to beg the question, why think they are from 'Acts'?

I'm kinda hoping Spin will shed some light, because I do respect his depth of knowledge, even though I can understand why he hasn't time to spend on a layman like myself. :] First place I will look now is his link to 'Kittel's' (again, because I scanned it briefly before, and it did seem to support the 'learned by pupil' thing).

Iskander

Religion means confusion and linguistic labyrinths only add to the confusion.
In classical Greek the word means precisely what spin, stephan huller ,Toto and others say it means.


I have suggested, as a leaning exercise, that time, place, and linguistic evolution modify the meaning of words...
The NT experts seem to treat paralmbona in a cavalier fashion and it is impossible for me to explain what biblios is trying to say with its 350 cases of concordance.

My suggestion is based on a slightly different meaning: Paralambano is the verb especially used of receiving a message or body of instruction handed down by tradition, to be delivered (paradidomi) to others in turn. And aa, TedM and others are kosher.

In this definition the one transmitting the message is only a link in a chain of equal events. The one with the message is invested with the power of a teacher or instructor, but this is only so because of the nature of the message and only if he repeats the message as received. It is not a formal teacher-student relationship as classical Greece may have understood it.


In 1 cor 15:3, Paul says I am going to tell you a story as it was told to me, learn it well and pass it on.