Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 04-10-2008, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

No, I don't see it. He had no opportunity to do so according to the story.

Maybe on the road to Emmaus, or on any of the other occaisions they spoke.

...uhm, that's after the resurrection, which is obviously absurdly fictional.

Are you suggesting that an even more blatant fictional account somehow exonerates a less tenuous account? I don't get it.

Alf · 04-11-2008, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

So, we have Jesus all by himself praying while the disciples are asleep. Immediately after he returns while he's still admonishing them for falling asleep, he's arrested and the passion begins.

No-one but Jesus could have known how intensly he prayed, what he prayed, or that an angel comforted him, and there was no opportunity for him to tell anyone about it.

Only the author of a fictional account could know these details.

FWIW Luke 22:43-44 are missing in several ancient manuscripts of Luke and are probably not part of the original text of Luke.

Andrew Criddle

Ah! The bible must be true because all the things in the bible which isn't true was really not part of the original bible?

Oh, when you manage to sort out what parts are original and rewrite so that the other redacted parts get their original form etc, we have a genuine word of god?

Was it also later redactors that distorted luke's description so that he come off as an ignorant when he says that Augustus made a decree that all the world should have a census? The roman empire did not hold empire wide censuses until around 80 AD - about the time Luke possibly wrote this. It sure sounds grander than "The romans held a census in Judea only as part of the take over from judean rule", right?

Alf

Alf · 04-11-2008, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

So, we have Jesus all by himself praying while the disciples are asleep. Immediately after he returns while he's still admonishing them for falling asleep, he's arrested and the passion begins.

No-one but Jesus could have known how intensly he prayed, what he prayed, or that an angel comforted him, and there was no opportunity for him to tell anyone about it.

Only the author of a fictional account could know these details.

Rubbish. Jesus himself could have told them. Don't you see this?

Now I am not saying that it happned or did not happen, but that this story was making the rounds and so Luke put it in his gospel.

This would not make it fiction but just a report of the stories

So you are saying that Jesus was a sinner?

I believed a very important dogma for christians was that Jesus was free of sin. What do I know?

Alf

Clivedurdle · 04-11-2008, 02:34 AM

It is not fiction - the Holy Spirit told Luke what happened to Jesus when they were all asleep.

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we acknowledge God's actual entry into real history.

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The Big Lie is a propaganda technique. It was defined by Adolf Hitler in his 1925 autobiography Mein Kampf as a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously".

judge · 04-11-2008, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Maybe on the road to Emmaus, or on any of the other occaisions they spoke.

...uhm, that's after the resurrection, which is obviously absurdly fictional.

.

Is it? Maybe he did rise from the dead. How can we tell. Just because you consider it absurdly fictional does not make it so.

When I consider all that we have to consider I think that maybe he did.

judge · 04-11-2008, 02:56 AM

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Originally Posted by Alf

So you are saying that Jesus was a sinner?

Um..not as far as I can see

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Originally Posted by Alf

I believed a very important dogma for christians was that Jesus was free of sin. What do I know?

Alf

So, why should christian dogma be important?

Alf · 04-11-2008, 02:59 AM

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Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

It is not fiction - the Holy Spirit told Luke what happened to Jesus when they were all asleep.

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we acknowledge God's actual entry into real history.

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The Big Lie is a propaganda technique. It was defined by Adolf Hitler in his 1925 autobiography Mein Kampf as a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously".

And we are to take Luke's word for this?

Yeah, sure, I can testify that it really happened. God himself told me!

If someone said that today we would call them loonies. Are you saying the author of Luke was a loonie? If not, why use a different standard then than we use today?

Alf

judge · 04-11-2008, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alf

Was it also later redactors that distorted luke's description so that he come off as an ignorant when he says that Augustus made a decree that all the world should have a census? The roman empire did not hold empire wide censuses until around 80 AD -

Alf

Orosius who wrote in the 5th century wrote.

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“[Augustus] ordered that a census be taken of each province everywhere and that all men be enrolled. ... This is the earliest and most famous public acknowledgment which marked Caesar as the first of all men and the Romans as lords of the world, a published list of all men entered individually .... This first and greatest census was taken, since in this one name of Caesar all the peoples of the great nations took oath, and at the same time, through the participation in the census, were made apart of one society..Orosius, VI.22 and VII.2.

Further to this , there does appear to be evidence that you might be incorrect about your point. Although i am happy to be corrected.

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Remarkably, an inscription found in Paphlagonia (north central Asia Minor) that is clearly dated to 3 B.C. records an oath of obedience “taken by the inhabitants of Paphlagonia and the Roman businessmen dwelling among them.” The inscription states that Romans as well as non-citizens took the oath. And importantly, the whole of the population were required to swear it. “The same oath was sworn also by all the people in the land [italics mine] at the altars of Augustus in the temples of Augustus in the various districts.” Lewis and Reinhold, Roman Civilization, II.34–35.

From here

Solo · 04-11-2008, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

No, I don't see it. He had no opportunity to do so according to the story.

Maybe on the road to Emmaus, or on any of the other occaisions they spoke

There is nothing recorded about Jesus describing his agony on the road to Emmaus or anywhere else. This came to you by the Holy Ghost, fess up !

Jiri

spamandham · 04-11-2008, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Is it? Maybe he did rise from the dead. How can we tell. Just because you consider it absurdly fictional does not make it so.

When I consider all that we have to consider I think that maybe he did.

If you're willing to appeal to magic miracles, why even bother with these discussions?

Which is the simpler explanation consistent with what we know about the way the universe works and human behavior:

1. Jesus actually rose from the dead
2. Jesus did not actually rise from the dead, but either by mythmaking, legend, or fiction, stories propogated that he did.

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