Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 10-20-2006, 08:55 PM

I look forward to reading comments from readers.

Pavlov's Dog · 10-20-2006, 09:23 PM

Didn't they follow a star or something?

GakuseiDon · 10-20-2006, 09:44 PM

I don't know if they actually "followed" a star, at least according to the story in Matthew. The synopsis is:

1. Wise men see a star, that to them signalled the birth of the "King of the Jews". So naturally they go to Jerusalem, and see Herod.
2. Herod tells them to go to Bethlehem and asks them "When did the star appear?" This means that Herod (and presumably the other astrologers in the area) didn't notice this star.
3. From their answer, Herod assumes that the child was born up to two years before. So it appears that the wise men's journey took up to two years.
4. When the wise men get to Bethlehem, they see the star "standing over" where Jesus lay. Interestingly, they rejoice when they see the star "standing over the child" (Mat 2:10), implying that they weren't led by the star.

So the answer is that Herod led them to the child in Bethlehem. The star helped them locate the child within Bethlehem.

DBT · 10-20-2006, 09:56 PM

The three wise men were probably meant to be astrologers.

Johnny Skeptic · 10-20-2006, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

So the answer is that Herod led them to the child in Bethlehem. The star helped them locate the child within Bethlehem.

Why did the wise men go to Herod? The star rose in the east, but they travelled west. How was the star able to lead the wise men to Jesus? In my opinion, the story is a lie, an attempt by Matthew to make it appear that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, thereby fulfilling Micah 5:2. If so, the attempt failed because there is not any credible evidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. In addition, Micah 5:2 mentions a person who would become ruler in Israel. Jesus did not become ruler in Israel.

GakuseiDon · 10-20-2006, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Why did the wise men go to Herod? The star rose in the east, but they travelled west. How was the star able to lead the wise men to Jesus?

The star DIDN'T lead them to Jesus. They saw the star, which indicated to them that a King of the Jews was born. So they went to Jerusalem. The star didn't lead them at all, so it didn't matter whether it rose in the east or the west.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

In my opinion, the story is a lie, an attempt by Matthew to make it appear that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, thereby fulfilling Micah 5:2.

Yes, no real argument there, though I don't think there is enough evidence to call it a "lie".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

If so, the attempt failed because there is not any credible evidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. In addition, Micah 5:2 mentions a person who would become ruler in Israel. Jesus did not become ruler in Israel.

I honestly don't care. That is your own obsession.

aa5874 · 10-20-2006, 11:27 PM

Now, as I think about the story of the wise men, something odd strikes me. The wise men saw a star, which they claim signifies the birth of the King of the Jews. They cannot locate this new born King, Herod himself does not know about this King.

The wise men eventually find this new born, strange enough without any guidance from God, but as soon as the child is found, God then intervenes and tells the wise men not to tell Herod.

Now wouldn't God have spared all those innocent children lives if He told the wise men where this new born King was, before they went and ask Herod. God appears to be not intelligent and cares only about His Son.

And the story has a serious flaw. This new born babe was never the King of the Jews. The wise men were fools.

Clivedurdle · 10-21-2006, 02:03 AM

Magi!

Members of Celtic priesthoods similar to (identical with?) that lot Caesar had problems with on the Isle of Mons?

Another cultural thread, a spice, a herb to put into this now very old marinade!

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=167032

(Forget the esus bit!)

Clivedurdle · 10-21-2006, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Druidism was replete with triadic concepts:

"Worship the gods, be manly, tell the truth"

The Druids were one part of a three fold group of scholars in Celtic societies across Europe and the Middle East - the Druids who are said to have had a twenty year training in the arts of memory, and were the priest phlosophers - magi does seem to be related, the second group Vatis were the Poets - a modern version is Fein or Finian. The third group were the Bards. Poets and Druids were similar - both were skilled in magic . Women were trained in all three orders. The Bards were feared because of their skills of oratory and satire and praise.

Quote:
The Celtic tribe consisted of the King, the men of learning - Druids, Prophets and Bards, the warriors and finally the artisans and craftsmen; the unskilled people were regarded as being of little consequence. The Druid had many functions, his training was long and arduous...he had several important roles priest, prophet, and very importantly, teacher, physician, guardian of the laws and genealogies.

Interesting how the stories of David Samuel et al match these concepts! The character of Jesus also has many of these characteristics. Goliath, as a giant, is an obvious god.

There is even a link with Simon Magus - Magus was interchangeable with Druid in the medieval period in Ireland.

In the three centuries BCE significant numbers of celts moved into Asia Minor. They were in Galatia -

Quote:
"O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you?...Now after ye have known God, or rather, are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Ye observe days, and months and times and years. (Gal 3 1, 4, 10 - 11).

There was not really a conflict between Pagans and Xians - the Druidic concept worship the gods is easily adapted to worship god. In any case xianity agreed with the Druids about three gods! Be manly, tell the truth did not change and became the basis of knighthood, chivalry and justice.

The Trinity is probably Celtic.

http://www.celtnet.org.uk/gods_l/lugus.html

It is strange the focus on a few texts without looking at what we do know about the development of religions, how ideas cross fertilise and change.

Quote:
The Celts were at the height of their powers the masters of Europe. Where there origins lie is still in question 'Was it in the West, in Ireland, or in Central Europe, in the Danube region?....If you could have taken an aeroplane in the Iron Age and flown from the Baltic to the Mediterranean, and from the Black sea to the West of Ireland, your whole journey would have been over Celtic occupied terrain."

Islam would also seem to have direct links with the worship of the moon.

We have recently commented on links between Buddism and Xianity. What about the influence of the Celts on Xianity? We do have several direct connections in the New Testament.

wordy · 10-21-2006, 04:48 AM

The story is a myth. Myths tries to make a point if I get it. Usually they are backward in time. One could try to read them as an interpretation that has moral implication for the believers. So the set up seems to be to give praise to Jesus as the King, it is a warning to those who like Herod cause they get told how unmoral he is cause he killed the 2000 innocent children. Keep to the right side cause we will gonna win the battle against the dark forces the text seems to say.

The function of three wise men in the myth to give credit from neigbouring countries that their wisest Magi knows about Jesus too and look up to him as promised in the old texts. It is all about bragging and hailing the true believers who don't question the myths and stay loyal cause great things are gonna come cause Jesus is the King. Spin doctors at work obviously. Don't take their myths literally for one second

10-20-2006, 08:55 PM	#1
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Who led the wise men to Jesus? I look forward to reading comments from readers.

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10-20-2006, 09:23 PM	#2
Pavlov's Dog Banned Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 4,074	Didn't they follow a star or something?

10-20-2006, 09:44 PM	#3
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	I don't know if they actually "followed" a star, at least according to the story in Matthew. The synopsis is: 1. Wise men see a star, that to them signalled the birth of the "King of the Jews". So naturally they go to Jerusalem, and see Herod. 2. Herod tells them to go to Bethlehem and asks them "When did the star appear?" This means that Herod (and presumably the other astrologers in the area) didn't notice this star. 3. From their answer, Herod assumes that the child was born up to two years before. So it appears that the wise men's journey took up to two years. 4. When the wise men get to Bethlehem, they see the star "standing over" where Jesus lay. Interestingly, they rejoice when they see the star "standing over the child" (Mat 2:10), implying that they weren't led by the star. So the answer is that Herod led them to the child in Bethlehem. The star helped them locate the child within Bethlehem.

10-20-2006, 09:56 PM	#4
DBT Contributor Join Date: May 2003 Location: ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן ǝɥʇ Posts: 17,906	The three wise men were probably meant to be astrologers.

10-20-2006, 11:27 PM	#7
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	Now, as I think about the story of the wise men, something odd strikes me. The wise men saw a star, which they claim signifies the birth of the King of the Jews. They cannot locate this new born King, Herod himself does not know about this King. The wise men eventually find this new born, strange enough without any guidance from God, but as soon as the child is found, God then intervenes and tells the wise men not to tell Herod. Now wouldn't God have spared all those innocent children lives if He told the wise men where this new born King was, before they went and ask Herod. God appears to be not intelligent and cares only about His Son. And the story has a serious flaw. This new born babe was never the King of the Jews. The wise men were fools.

10-21-2006, 02:03 AM	#8
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Magi! Members of Celtic priesthoods similar to (identical with?) that lot Caesar had problems with on the Isle of Mons? Another cultural thread, a spice, a herb to put into this now very old marinade! http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=167032 (Forget the esus bit!)

10-21-2006, 04:48 AM	#10
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	The story is a myth. Myths tries to make a point if I get it. Usually they are backward in time. One could try to read them as an interpretation that has moral implication for the believers. So the set up seems to be to give praise to Jesus as the King, it is a warning to those who like Herod cause they get told how unmoral he is cause he killed the 2000 innocent children. Keep to the right side cause we will gonna win the battle against the dark forces the text seems to say. The function of three wise men in the myth to give credit from neigbouring countries that their wisest Magi knows about Jesus too and look up to him as promised in the old texts. It is all about bragging and hailing the true believers who don't question the myths and stay loyal cause great things are gonna come cause Jesus is the King. Spin doctors at work obviously. Don't take their myths literally for one second

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