Freethought & Rationalism Archive

digitalbeachbum · 11-07-2007, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktsai

A person I met is trying to inculcate me with his beliefs. He emailed me this as proof of the "absolute authority of God's word." Supposedly, these are prophecies in the bible that came true. I don't know much about the historicity of these. Can someone please verify if these prophecies have been fulfilled and are true/false:

None of them came true because the prophecies are vague and cryptic. It's no different than the Nostradamus prophecies.

TJG · 11-07-2007, 01:06 PM

Quote:

2 Kings 23:17 The king asked, "What is that tombstone I see?" The men of the city said, "It marks the tomb of the man of God who came from Judah and pronounced against the altar of Bethel the very things you have done to it."
18 "Leave it alone," he said. "Don't let anyone disturb his bones." So they spared his bones and those of the prophet who had come from Samaria.

I'm not familiar with the claim that this passage constitutes a prophesy, but if the man of God from Judah is supposed to represent Jesus, the fact that his bones reside in the tomb would appear to put a bit of a damper on the resurrection story.

Minimalist · 11-07-2007, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

Quote:

In A.D.70 the Jew rebelled against the Roman Empire. General Titus was sent to attack Jerusalem and burn the temple where some gold equipment were inside. The melted gold got into the seams of the stone bricks of the walls and stayed there. In order to get the gold the Roman soldiers broke the walls into pieces except the west wall, really no one stone left upon another as the Bible says.

This is the first I've heard of gold melting into the seams, and recovered by conquering Romans when they pried about the stones. I've looked around the internet for the source of this information but so far only find Christian sources, some of which state that Josephus made this particular claim.

Anyone out there with Josephus' works that confirm or deny that this was the case?

(Either way, the wailing wall seems to contradict claims that no stone was left standing upon another)

Screw Josephus, there are reliefs on the Arch of Titus in Rome which show the temple treasure being paraded through the streets during Titus' Triumph. They do not look melted to me.

ktsai · 11-08-2007, 07:04 AM

Quote:

I'm curious how your friend explains how he knows that one is "the absolute authority of God"? Has he read the Bible cover to cover? Does he know how internally incoherent it is? Does he even have the slightest clue how the books that constitute the Bible that we know today were selected (and that there are several version of "the" Bible around the world...)?

Many of the staunchest defenders of the Bible as the inerrant word of God actually have a very poor understanding of what it says or how it came to be.

regards,

NinJay

I have, in the past, mentioned that the bible is filled with errors, but he is still quite obdurate about the idea that the bible is inerrant. I asked how he got to his understanding that the bible is the absolute authority of God. This is something that I'm quite curious about also.

Quote:

He says, "...one cannot only read the bible as it is, but one has to understand it. Its meaning and its purpose and why it is here. When we mirror that with the world and universe around us, the answers become quite clear. Our understanding of His absolute authority is revealed through natural law."

It's funny, cause none of it is clear. I'm guessing that natural law here is referring to the anthropic principle. Not 100% sure though...this is the first time I've heard that.

lee_merrill · 11-08-2007, 07:57 AM

Here are some other prophecies you might want to consider.

There are a number of prophecies that are to continually be fulfilled, forever.

Now some might say that "forever prophecies" are actually not so difficult to make, such as in saying "This car will never run again." Yet this prophecy has a point beyond which it cannot reasonably be falsified, but other prophecies may not. Certainly, making a probable "forever prophecy" is not so difficult, nor is making a probable prophecy about anything! "The sun, I predict, will rise tomorrow." Yet these easy prophecies do not explain improbable ones, and more importantly, such easy predictions do not overturn prophecies that can be falsified, forever.

We may also note here that there are some prophecies like this in Scripture in both directions (so to speak): that some specific nations would disappear, and yet others specifically would continue, so this is not only making guesses based on a general tendency, as far as nations lasting or not.

-Jay- · 11-08-2007, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

We may also note here that there are some prophecies like this in Scripture in both directions (so to speak): that some specific nations would disappear, and yet others specifically would continue, so this is not only making guesses based on a general tendency, as far as nations lasting or not.

Revealingly, there are no references to New World nations, such as, well, the United States for instance. There are no references to now-prominent nations like Japan. To find a prophetic reference that is clearly and unambiguously beyond the scope of the world as the Biblical writers knew it would be interesting, to say the least. The fact that Biblical prophecy is limited to areas and peoples that the Biblical writers were familiar with tells against a supernatural origin.

regards,

NinJay

-Jay- · 11-08-2007, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktsai

I have, in the past, mentioned that the bible is filled with errors, but he is still quite obdurate about the idea that the bible is inerrant. I asked how he got to his understanding that the bible is the absolute authority of God. This is something that I'm quite curious about also.

Quote:

He says, "...one cannot only read the bible as it is, but one has to understand it. Its meaning and its purpose and why it is here. When we mirror that with the world and universe around us, the answers become quite clear. Our understanding of His absolute authority is revealed through natural law."

Pardon me, but what the hell is he talking about? Sounds like he's confusing his own inner ruminations with some sort of special revelation...

regards,

NinJay

shirley knott · 11-08-2007, 09:07 AM

It may be futile, but it has to be asked:
Lee, precisely what is a prophecy?

Specifically, what distinguishes prophecy from prediction, conicidence, lucky guess, accident, temporal dishonesy [prophecies about future events made after those events occurred], or any of the other well-defined notions we have to categorize statements about the future?
What makes something a prophecy rather than any of the other possibilities?

Please, no external links or references, in your own words.
kthx.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

JuliaLink · 11-08-2007, 10:34 AM

Did God back up these prophesies? I'd find a blu-ray from the first century to be quite convincing.

TheInerrantWord · 11-08-2007, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Here are some other prophecies you might want to consider.

Bible prophesies are so dumb. I'll just start at the top of that website's list.

Babylon was occupied (then sacked, then occuped) LONG after the hebrews left. When was that prophesy made? It's currently being occupied by U.S. Marines. Don't they count?

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11-08-2007, 07:57 AM	#35
lee_merrill Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,074	Here are some other prophecies you might want to consider. There are a number of prophecies that are to continually be fulfilled, forever. Now some might say that "forever prophecies" are actually not so difficult to make, such as in saying "This car will never run again." Yet this prophecy has a point beyond which it cannot reasonably be falsified, but other prophecies may not. Certainly, making a probable "forever prophecy" is not so difficult, nor is making a probable prophecy about anything! "The sun, I predict, will rise tomorrow." Yet these easy prophecies do not explain improbable ones, and more importantly, such easy predictions do not overturn prophecies that can be falsified, forever. We may also note here that there are some prophecies like this in Scripture in both directions (so to speak): that some specific nations would disappear, and yet others specifically would continue, so this is not only making guesses based on a general tendency, as far as nations lasting or not.

11-08-2007, 09:07 AM	#38
shirley knott Regular Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 416	It may be futile, but it has to be asked: Lee, precisely what is a prophecy? Specifically, what distinguishes prophecy from prediction, conicidence, lucky guess, accident, temporal dishonesy [prophecies about future events made after those events occurred], or any of the other well-defined notions we have to categorize statements about the future? What makes something a prophecy rather than any of the other possibilities? Please, no external links or references, in your own words. kthx. no hugs for thugs, Shirley Knott

11-08-2007, 10:34 AM	#39
JuliaLink Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 49	Did God back up these prophesies? I'd find a blu-ray from the first century to be quite convincing.

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