Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Madkins007 · 04-10-2004, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

Ahem. I am taking a class on french medieval architecture, and I can say that european cathedrals, especially catholic ones, invariably have their altar on the east end. This custom arose in the romanesque period 800-1100. Earlier churches were built more on an ad-hoc basis, as the church and the world in general was not so well organized in those days. Churches tend to re-use old foundations whenever possible, so if you had a church oriented differently, all successive churches would likewise be oriented differently, as was St Peters. Other reasons for variations include site conditions, such as soil and existing streets and squares. These were factors in the construction of smaller churches, where the variation is most pronounced. For larger cathedrals, however, they were always placed with their altars facing east, especially in France and Spain. This was for several reasons:

The sun rising each day is an analogy for the risen christ. Hence the altar faces the east.

West, the location of the setting sun is associated with death. The west end of churches often took the form of a fortress, with towers, etc, to show in part the opposition of the church and the mundane world.

Light was used in a very special way in romanesque and gothic churches. In romanesque churches, there were few windows, and they were concentrated around the altar, to emphasize that location, leaving the rest dark. The rising sun in the morning would have emphasized this distinction. As Chuck pointed out, this was before the invention of stained glass windows, so most of these windows would simply have been holes to let in plain light. Gothic cathedrals, with their greater fenestration, were lighter, but the magical qualities of the stained glass were best revealed in direct light, which during morning mass would have been concentrated on the altar.

Greek and Russian Orthodox churches do not have any real orientation preference, as both the architecture and liturgy are different from the catholic church. The Hagia Sophia is an orthodox church, so we can't expect it to follow the same rules as the catholic ones.

In america, I expect most of these things were simply discarded because we don't have patience for that kind of subtlety. And besides, with the advent of artificial lighting, through gas or electricity, helped minimize the impact of the architectonic qualities of the church's orientation. Yet...I will bet the major Basilicas and Cathedrals in america are oriented east west, even if your local church is not.

St. Cecilias, an old cathedral in Omaha IS oriented East/West with the main door opening west- facing, oddly enough, away from most of the city at the time but providing a stunning display of the eastern adn southern stained glass windows in the mornings.

It also makes perfect sense to me that it was a trend in various times and places for various reasons. There are other such trends you can find, such as halos, depictions of saints, etc. in Christian art.

Clivedurdle · 04-13-2004, 12:53 PM

Or is the concept of the risen Christ an analogy of the risen sun? Why should xianity not be a sun worshipping cult?

EGGO · 04-13-2004, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Some vague notions are dawning on me, but I would love to know the accepted arguments! :notworthy

I won't try and be funny, I really think it's mostly for those churches with some sort of window.

That way, when the sun rises (from the east) at whatever time, the lighting will look exquisite (from stained glass to a small cut from a stone to allow the rays to look like something when it hits the ground or more). Light sure brightens up a room when it comes.

Then again, that's mostly for the catholic churches.

Clivedurdle · 08-20-2004, 01:04 PM

I recommend a look at this thread. A copy of this book was in Borders but I thought I would check out amazon first about it.

The thesis is very interesting, my immediate reaction was Bible Code but academically done, but the author may be on to something.

Jesus Christ Sun of God

Spotlight Reviews

6 of 22 people found the following review helpful:

Excellent technical treatise by a non-believer., March 23, 1997

Reviewer:
ª
A reader (Maitland, FL United States)

Jesus Christ, Sun of God is an excellent book for the serious student of the New Testament. Mr. Fideler carefully develops the hidden "numerologic" content of NT writings, with an equally careful development of the historical genesis of "numerology" in Pagan Greek culture and religion. Unfortunately, Mr. Fideler writes from the viewpoint of a secular scholar devaluing the content of the inspired word, for he reaches the conclusion that most gospel writing was simply a Christian updating of Pagan work. He gives no credit to the idea that the Christian writing was in fact inspired of God (2 Tim 3:16), and that when it contains secret gnostic codes, it does so to show that God is in fact the only true God, and that He knows the "secrets" of the gnostics, whose beliefs we are to avoid (1 Tim 6:20). Even with this failing, Fideler's book is not to be missed by the serious student. It simply contains too much solid material.

24 of 24 people found the following review helpful:

One of the best books I've read in a long time., November 27, 2001

Reviewer:
ª
"ryaen_allen" (Oakland, CA United States) - See all my reviews

It has become plainly obvious from the Christian commentary above that they do not like "secular scholars" revealing that Christian philosophy and theology is mostly built on Pagan ideas. The fact is that the above reviewers obviously missed the point of this book.

Fideler spends the first half of the book demonstrating that there is a deeply evolved amount of symbolism in the texts of the N.T. that started 500 years (give or take) before Christ's time (and likely farther back than that). Symbolism that is communicated in numerical metaphors, imagery, harmonics and in poetry and myth that express higher (ineffable?) concepts. With a fuller understanding of Logos, we understand why the "Word" is an inadequate translation and reinforces Plato's own observations on the problem with language. With Clement's symbols of the Dove and the New Song we see how old concepts such as Gematria became "modernized" under the Hellenistic church fathers - expressing new ideas in an ancient way.

One could take many things away from this book: a new appreciation for those Pagan philosophers the Catholic Church is not fond of, an appreciation for the similarities between scientific and mystical thought, or an understanding of the problems associated in literal interpretation of religious works. Fideler covers many things in this book - the only fault I find was that it wasn't twice as long! --This text refers to the Paperback edition

04-13-2004, 12:53 PM	#22
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The sun rising each day is an analogy for the risen christ Or is the concept of the risen Christ an analogy of the risen sun? Why should xianity not be a sun worshipping cult?

08-20-2004, 01:04 PM	#24
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The Sun of God I recommend a look at this thread. A copy of this book was in Borders but I thought I would check out amazon first about it. The thesis is very interesting, my immediate reaction was Bible Code but academically done, but the author may be on to something. Jesus Christ Sun of God Spotlight Reviews 6 of 22 people found the following review helpful: Excellent technical treatise by a non-believer., March 23, 1997 Reviewer: ª A reader (Maitland, FL United States) Jesus Christ, Sun of God is an excellent book for the serious student of the New Testament. Mr. Fideler carefully develops the hidden "numerologic" content of NT writings, with an equally careful development of the historical genesis of "numerology" in Pagan Greek culture and religion. Unfortunately, Mr. Fideler writes from the viewpoint of a secular scholar devaluing the content of the inspired word, for he reaches the conclusion that most gospel writing was simply a Christian updating of Pagan work. He gives no credit to the idea that the Christian writing was in fact inspired of God (2 Tim 3:16), and that when it contains secret gnostic codes, it does so to show that God is in fact the only true God, and that He knows the "secrets" of the gnostics, whose beliefs we are to avoid (1 Tim 6:20). Even with this failing, Fideler's book is not to be missed by the serious student. It simply contains too much solid material. 24 of 24 people found the following review helpful: One of the best books I've read in a long time., November 27, 2001 Reviewer: ª "ryaen_allen" (Oakland, CA United States) - See all my reviews It has become plainly obvious from the Christian commentary above that they do not like "secular scholars" revealing that Christian philosophy and theology is mostly built on Pagan ideas. The fact is that the above reviewers obviously missed the point of this book. Fideler spends the first half of the book demonstrating that there is a deeply evolved amount of symbolism in the texts of the N.T. that started 500 years (give or take) before Christ's time (and likely farther back than that). Symbolism that is communicated in numerical metaphors, imagery, harmonics and in poetry and myth that express higher (ineffable?) concepts. With a fuller understanding of Logos, we understand why the "Word" is an inadequate translation and reinforces Plato's own observations on the problem with language. With Clement's symbols of the Dove and the New Song we see how old concepts such as Gematria became "modernized" under the Hellenistic church fathers - expressing new ideas in an ancient way. One could take many things away from this book: a new appreciation for those Pagan philosophers the Catholic Church is not fond of, an appreciation for the similarities between scientific and mystical thought, or an understanding of the problems associated in literal interpretation of religious works. Fideler covers many things in this book - the only fault I find was that it wasn't twice as long! --This text refers to the Paperback edition

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