Ebonmuse

"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." --John 14:26 (RSV)

also:

"And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you." --John 14:16-17

CX

The word PARAKLHTOS occurs only 4 times in GJn (once in 1Jn and nowhere else in the NT). In GJn 14:26 it explicitly identifies the PARAKLHTOS as the Holy Spirit. It can perhaps be argued that this was a later addition given the obivious level of redaction of the canonical John, however, this verse is attested in several early MSS that are dated well before the birth of Mohammed. The use of GJn 14:16 as a prefiguration of the coming of Mohammed is the worst kind of shabby apologetics.

River

Shabby. LOL

I don't think so. The fact that the very Last Sermon of Jesus Christ somehow mentions the Periklytos....the very word in Greek means " the Praised One"...and the word " Muhammad" also means " the Praised One"....

Perhaps coincidence?....considering the fact that the Bible has been tampered with before it leaves a very high possibility that the person suspected is indeed Muhammad (pbuh).

---River

River

Also....If you study the Bible closely...you will understand that Jesus Christ gave some very not so subtle hints about the nature of his community and the Messenger that will come after him.

This is just one of dozens of example.......what ? apologetics, you say? nonsense.

Jesus called his apostles "the Muslims"(Luke 6:40)Aramaic translated into Hebrew:

"Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo.

"Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."

So who are the Mushlam community of Jesus Christ? Who were these Mushlamim (Musulman) disciples of Jesus Christ? Were these the Christians? No

---River

Magdlyn

The Xtian scriptures were written in Greek. So translating Greek into Aramaic into Hebrew into Arabic into English is just a long and winding road--to nowhere, IMO.

"and still it leads me back..."

To a mythical pagan godman whom people like to make into their own fantasy savior.

If we admit the Xtian scriptures were edited and redacted, how do we know Jesus' "last speech" was really his last?

CX

Rubbish. PARAKLHTOS does not mean "praised one". I defy you to provide any academic reference indicating that it does. The etymology isn't even close. The prefix PARA is prepositional and means near, beside, by, at. The root KLHTOS means "called". According to the LSJ, PARAKLHTOS roughly means "called to one's aid". Secondly, all this apologetic tap-dancing totally ignores the usage in GJn 14:26. Your argument, I think, is that this a corruption of the text intended to obscure the true meaning as a prefiguration of Mohammed. We have MSS that date well before the birth of Mohammed that contain this verse and this word usage. So we are expected to believe that 14:16 prefigures a prophet who would arrive some 3 centuries later and then a century before this prophet's arrival another individual who would also have to be prophetic realizes that this is a prophecy of someone not yet born and then corrupts the text to hide the prophetic meaning. Or we can take the text a face value and accept that the author is talking about the Holy Spirit. Talk about running afoul of Occam's Razor.

A little reflection suggests to me that you are intending to replace PARAKLHTOS with PERIKLYTOS. I noticed this on a couple muslim apologetic sites. This too is ridiculous. PERIKLYTOS means "famous" or "reknowned". The problem though is that its usage is limited to the Homeric literature and period centuries before the emergence of Koine and the NT. PERIKLYTOS is not used anywhere in any Koine text including all known extrabiblical sources. It is never used in the NT because the word was essentially unknown in the period in question. It would be roughly equivalent to finding an obscure word in Beowulf used in a 21st century english text. This is nothing more than a cheap, rhetorical bait and switch. The word in ALL extant MSS including those from the earliest period from which we have MSS evidence use the word PARAKLHTOS.

Ebonmuse

Yes, and when you translate "Out of sight, out of mind" into Russian and then back into English, it comes out "Invisible insane". On what grounds do you assert that a Hebrew word that sounds sort of like "Muslim" actually means "Muslim" in the sense of a follower of Muhammad who has to make five daily prayers, take a pilgrimage to Mecca, etc.?

CX

Luke was written in Greek.

GLk 6:40 (NA27)
OUK<not> ESTIN<is> MAQHTHS<disciple> UPER<above> TON<the> DIDASKALON<teacher> KATHRTISMENOS<perfected> DE<but> PAS<everyone> ESTAI<shall be> WS<as> hO DIDASKALOS<teacher> AUTOU<his>

A disciple is not above the teacher, but everyone perfected shall be as his teacher.

The key term here that you are translating as MUSLIM is KATHRTISMENOS. IN Koine the word comes from the verb KATHRTIZO meaning "to perfect" so the phrase KATHRTISMENOS DE means "but perfected". By contrast the word transliterated in English as Muslim comes from the Arabic word meaning "to surrender" a Muslim, in Islam is "one who surrenders to god". Etymologically and semantically the two words have nothing in common. The fact that one needs to take an originally Greek text, translate it into Aramaic, then into Hebrew, then into English is further evidence of the twisted and ad hoc logic at work.

CX

I've decided I'm not going to continue participating in this thread as the entire argument, so far, is ridiculous and not worthy of a thoughtful response. If there is anyone here besides River who doesn't think that every point put forward so far has been soundly thrashed let me know and I'll reconsider.

River

because Hebrew , Aramaic, Arabic, and Aramaic share common world roots as members of the Semitic language family. i.e the word Peace in hebrew is " Shalom" the word "Salam" is the arabic equivalent for peace. The word for leader in hebrew is "Amir" , the word for leader in arabic is "Amir". The word for Messiah in hebrew is "Mashiach"...the word for Messiah in arabic is "Masih"...I mean obviously these languages are related, intimately.

I did not mention " Muslim " in the sense of establishing the fiver pillars but instead the way the Quran uses the word 'muslim"----which translates to " Submission to the Will of G-d". All the Biblical Prophets are from the same family .....even Muhammad whose ancestry can be traced back to Ishmael or Abraham.

--River