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Old 07-03-2005, 11:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpetrich

I've tried to track down the original claim that the Merovingians, some kings of early-medieval France, had allegedly been descended from Jesus Christ, but all I got was references to "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", and "The Da Vinci Code". However, if those kings themselves had claimed that, or if anyone back then had claimed that on their behalf, it was likely their invention to "demonstrate" those kings' legitimacy.
I have never heard of such a claim. The Merovingians were catholic, and that is why they had the support of the catholic hierarchy against some arian Wisigoth kings. Clovis was the first french king who was anointed, and this gave him the authority of lieutenant of God on earth. But he could not be descended from JC. And this has nothing to do with Mary Magdalen.
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Old 07-03-2005, 03:33 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Huon
I have never heard of such a claim. The Merovingians were catholic, and that is why they had the support of the catholic hierarchy against some arian Wisigoth kings. Clovis was the first french king who was anointed, and this gave him the authority of lieutenant of God on earth. But he could not be descended from JC. And this has nothing to do with Mary Magdalen.
I'm not sure about the Merovingians, but the 1804 poem Jerusalem by William Blake is about Jesus walking in ancient Britain, something which is part of British folklore, if not Anglican tradition-

Quote:
And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold!
Bring me my Arrows of desire!
Bring my my Spear! O clouds, unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand,
'Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land.
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Old 07-04-2005, 03:31 AM   #13
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JohnHud, how did you find out that Mary Magdalene was really Princess Julia Berenice Agrippa, whoever she had been?

It must be said that if she was any sort of royalty, then Jesus Christ having a relationship with her would bump up his already-high Lord Raglan score. Which would come about because it agrees with the item in Lord Raglan's mythic-hero profile that states that the hero marries a princess; JC already fits that profile very well.

However, she is persistently portrayed as a commoner with no discernible royal ancestry; even feminist admirers of her consider her a commoner, and that includes those who imagine that she had been some pagan priestess(!)

I will now discuss her name a bit more. The Magdalene part is likely derived from some town named Magdala, but which Magdala? The New Testament is not very clear about that. And the name Magdala is derived from Hebrew "migdal", which means "tower" or "fortress"; a rather generic sort of name. The Gauls had "dunum", the Romans had "castra", and much more recently, several American towns have "Fort" in their name.

And the Mary part? Let us consider three Roman names:

Marius / Maria
Marcus
Marinus / Marina

all of which have descendants, like Italian "Mario" and "Marco" and "Marino", and all of which have been abundantly borrowed.

The first two, as I'd mentioned, are usually derived from the name of the Roman god Mars (suffixed form Mart-). And the third is usually derived from "mare", the Latin word for sea. But might the first or second names have that origin also?

Now to Hebrew "Miriam" (mrym). The name is entry 4813 in Strong's Concordance; it is likely derived from a word meaning "bitter" or "rebellious" (Strong's 4805: mry).

ETA: I've recently tried to compare Maria vs. Mariam in a Greek New Testament, but think I'll have to be a bit more careful, like using the three GNT's at Bible Gateway, instead of only one. Maria vs. Mariam seems like a case of incomplete editing to me.
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Old 07-07-2005, 07:22 PM   #14
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I've decided to analyze how the various Maries are referred to in the various original-language editions, in order to see if there is any pattern in Maria vs. Mariam; I have used the three Greek New Testaments at the Bible Gateway
1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament
1550 Stephanus New Testament
1894 Scrivener New Testament
And also The University of York Greek New Testament (not sure how it's related to the other ones)

Greek nouns have much more inflection than English one; it has five cases with these meanings, illustrated for Maria:
Vocative: Maria -- when being addressed ("Mary!")
Nominative: Maria -- subject ("Mary saw me")
Accusative: Marian -- direct object ("I saw Mary")
Dative: Mariai -- indirect object, to-case ("to Mary")
Genitive: Marias -- of-case ("of Mary, Mary's")

However, Mariam, like several other Old Testament names in the Septuagint and the NT, is indeclinable; it has that form in all the cases.


A few patterns can be discerned. The genitive is always Marias (from Maria), the Stephanus and Scrivener's editions always agree on Maria vs. Mariam, and the York And Westcott-Hort editions usually agree, but it's hard to find any further patterns between the editions.

As to the various Maries, Jesus Christ's mother is more often called Mariam, Mary Magdalene is more often called Maria, and the sister of Martha and Lazarus is about evenly split between the two. However, there are too few references to the other Maries to discern any patterns.


Details:


Mary, mother of Jesus Christ
Vocative:
- Mariam, Luke 1:30
Nominative:
- Maria, Luke 2:19 WH
- Mariam, Matt 13:55, Luke 1:27, 1:34, 1:38, 1:39, 1:46, 1:56, 2:19 others
Accusative:
- Marian, Matt 1:20 WH
- Mariam, Matt 1:20 others, Luke 2:16, 2:34
Dative:
- Mariai, Acts 1:14 Stef Scriv
- Mariam, Luke 2:5, Acts 1:14 WH York
Genitive:
- Marias, Matt 1:16, 1:18, 2:11, Mark 6:3, Luke 1:41


Mary Magdalene
Nominative:
- Maria, Matt 27:56, 27:61 Stef Scriv, 28:1 others, Mark 15:40 others, 15:47, 16:1, Luke 24:10, John 19:25, John 20:1, John 20:16 Stef Scriv, John 20:18 Stef Scriv
- Mariam, Matt 27:61 York WH, 28:1 York, Mark 15:40 WH, John 20:16 York WH, 20:18 York WH
Dative:
- Mariai 16:9


Mary, mother of James the Younger and of Joseph
Nominative:
- Maria, Matt 27:56, 27:61, 28:1, Mark 15:40, 15:47, 16:1, Luke 24:10


Mary, sister of Martha and Lazarus
Nominative:
- Maria, Luke 10:39, 10:42, John 11:2, 11:20, 11:32, 12:3 all Stef Scriv
- Mariam, Luke 10:39, 10:42, John 11:2, 11:20, 11:32, 12:3 all York WH
Accusative:
- Marian John 11:19 11:28 11:31, 11:45 all Stef Scriv
- Mariam, John 11:19, 11:28, 11:31, 11:45 all York WH
Genitive:
- Marias, John 11:1


Mary, wife of Clopas (Cleophas)
Nominative:
- Maria, John 19:25


Mary, mother of John, also called Mark
Genitive:
- Marias, Acts 12:12


Mary, Paul's colleague
Accusative:
- Marian, Romans 16:6 York
- Mariam, Romans 16:6 others
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