Freethought & Rationalism Archive

J-D · 08-12-2009, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Huh?

Didn't actualy say it was an historical event, it is the biblicaly based rationale in rrsponse to IAJs question on ancient Jewish agression, asuming as IAJ does that the bible is a true accounting.

What factors account for a true accounting? If this is based on historical factors, than the exodus cannot be a myth: if the Israelites can be evidenced for being in Egypt - and then in Canaan - it is not a myth, being from point A to point B. The factor of a sea splitting or not, does not apply in making the exodus a myth - because this is not provable or disprovable.

How do you decide what's disprovable and what's not? Isn't it appropriate to regard the supernatural events in a work like the Saga of the Volsungs as casting doubt on its strict historical reliability?

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

We have a non-mythical Egytian stelle which affirms there was a war with Israel, and we have historical proof of the Israelites in Canaan. I know of no other 3000 + year event or report with more evdence than the Israelite exodus: feel free to nominate one?

Sure. Lots. All I'd have to do is pick up any history dealing with the period and list everything it records. How about, to begin with, the conquests of Shamshi-Adad I of Assyria and the conquests of Hammurabi of Babylon?

As I've pointed out to you previously, the Victory Stele of Merneptah records an Egyptian war with Israel (probably), but it does not confirm that the Israelites were in Egypt.

J-D · 08-12-2009, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

The snake sex is an accepted interpretation in Judaism. Jewish halkha also says that a simple dismissal, as you are attempting, is not permissible. If we face a contradictory interpretation we are told to find a third interpretation to reconcile them. Your attempt to avoid the discussion can be seen as hypocritical and heretical.

The first interpretation factor is that the report is not set on earth [the text].

???

Quote:

Purim is a pagan holiday that got incorporated into Judaism.

This is dishistorical and baseless. Purim marks an event in 500 BCE - or 2,500ago. Israel is 4000 years old; the first temple period was marked by wars based on Israel being monotheistic and non-pagan.

In actual fact, the Israelites were the only non-pagan peoples in Babylon when the Purim event occured, and when Babylon was conquered by Persia, Darius gave permission to rebuilt the temple. This battle over monotheism continued thereafter when the Greeks conquered Persia - and again with Rome and Greek fostered Christianity.

There is no evidence for the story of Purim independent of the Bible. It probably never happened.

The Purim story is not set in Babylon, and it is set after the Persian conquest of Babylon, not before. The Persian king who conquered Babylon and gave permission for the rebuilding of the Temple was Cyrus, not Darius.

J-D · 08-12-2009, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

The Jews were always in conflict, if not with the outside world, among themselves.

They claimed the lands of Israel thoud sands of years ago based on being awarded the land by an omnipotent god..

This omits that the Israelites were 100% Canaanite people, born and incepted in that land - so conquering cannot apply in one's own land. The fact is that Jews have never occupied or stolen another peoples' lands in all their 4000 year history - despite being dispersed throughout the nations. This is a unique record, and the only claim made relates only to the ancestral land of the Jews - there is totally no track record of Jews stealing lands elsewhere in 4000 years.

Nor is it is acceptable to say that the land was promised by God: in fact the God of Israel gave her 100% factual, legal, historical proof which was the Jews' land. Please prove any other nation's ownership of their land - how they got it and when? Europe has been stealing other peoples' land for 1000s of years and so have the Arabian peoples. You are confused - or worse.

As far as it's possible to tell, all the land in the world has been seized by force from earlier inhabitants--and in most if not all cases those earlier inhabitants seized it by force from still earlier inhabitants, and they from still earlier ones, and so on. Given this, the probability is that the Israelites also seized their land by force from earlier inhabitants. There's not enough evidence independent of the Bible to establish in detail what happened.

As I mentioned above, the Jews definitely seized other people's territory by force in the reign of

John Hyrcanus.

semiopen · 08-12-2009, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

The snake sex is an accepted interpretation in Judaism. Jewish halkha also says that a simple dismissal, as you are attempting, is not permissible. If we face a contradictory interpretation we are told to find a third interpretation to reconcile them. Your attempt to avoid the discussion can be seen as hypocritical and heretical.

The first interpretation factor is that the report is not set on earth [the text].

Your original comment was that this hadn't happened. Now your position is that Eve had sex with the snake but it wasn't on Earth? Can you reference the place in the Talmud that it says that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Purim is a pagan holiday that got incorporated into Judaism.

This is dishistorical and baseless. Purim marks an event in 500 BCE - or 2,500ago. Israel is 4000 years old; the first temple period was marked by wars based on Israel being monotheistic and non-pagan.

In actual fact, the Israelites were the only non-pagan peoples in Babylon when the Purim event occured, and when Babylon was conquered by Persia, Darius gave permission to rebuilt the temple. This battle over monotheism continued thereafter when the Greeks conquered Persia - and again with Rome and Greek fostered Christianity.

Your Purim response is silly and wrong as J-D has pointed out above.

It is possible to make a semi-rational case for Purim, and I admire the skill and knowledge of someone who can do this effectively. Look at your rambling and incoherent response, think about the message you are sending people.

steve_bnk · 08-12-2009, 11:57 PM

The ancient Jews appear to have been a small minor but tough gang in a tough neighborhood surviving against much bigger gangs to use a modern metaphor.

Not nearly as powerful as Crips or Bloods, but a small neighborhodd gang that occasionly gets pushed around.

The Jews were not nearly as glorious as one may read in the bible.

premjan · 08-13-2009, 12:10 AM

A lot of the Hindu scriptures are about how enormously powerful the various sages were - their amazing mental powers could fry people with a glance etc. etc. Basically just self-aggrandizement on the part of composers of various texts.

steve_bnk · 08-14-2009, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

A lot of the Hindu scriptures are about how enormously powerful the various sages were - their amazing mental powers could fry people with a glance etc. etc. Basically just self-aggrandizement on the part of composers of various texts.

Uisng the semi-mythical original Chinese Shaolin monks as an example, from what I read years back the monks got what was then the eqivalent of a university eduction inlcudng sience, medicine. practical psychology, and liteature.

Along with this they trained as world class athletes would daily.

When they went out into the world of uneducated peasants, they indeed seemed miraculous giving rise to all sorts of anecdotal events.

IamJoseph · 08-15-2009, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

The ancient Jews appear to have been a small minor but tough gang in a tough neighborhood surviving against much bigger gangs to use a modern metaphor.

Not nearly as powerful as Crips or Bloods, but a small neighborhodd gang that occasionly gets pushed around.

The Jews were not nearly as glorious as one may read in the bible.

Define 'glory'. Did mighty Rome have glory - I don't think so!

steve_bnk · 08-15-2009, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

The ancient Jews appear to have been a small minor but tough gang in a tough neighborhood surviving against much bigger gangs to use a modern metaphor.

Not nearly as powerful as Crips or Bloods, but a small neighborhodd gang that occasionly gets pushed around.

The Jews were not nearly as glorious as one may read in the bible.

Define 'glory'. Did mighty Rome have glory - I don't think so!

To say the least they embelished their granduer in the OT. At their peak they were a small kingdom at best.

To experience glory listen to Handel's Water Music, it is one of my favorite works even though it reaks of regal arristicraic glory and pretension...

J-D · 08-15-2009, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

The ancient Jews appear to have been a small minor but tough gang in a tough neighborhood surviving against much bigger gangs to use a modern metaphor.

Not nearly as powerful as Crips or Bloods, but a small neighborhodd gang that occasionly gets pushed around.

The Jews were not nearly as glorious as one may read in the bible.

Define 'glory'. Did mighty Rome have glory - I don't think so!

'Glory' has more than one meaning. If one measures glory by the conferring of praise, then Rome had glory, since it accumulated much praise. On the other hand, if one measures glory by praiseworthy achievement, then whether Rome was glorious depends on which achievements one thinks merit praise. I presume what steve was saying is that the Jews did not have such a record of great achievement as one might think from the Bible. I think the Bible does exaggerate the military and political power of the ancient Jews, but not everybody would think that military and political power merits praise, even if the Biblical writers regarded it as glorious.

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08-12-2009, 11:57 PM	#75
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	The ancient Jews appear to have been a small minor but tough gang in a tough neighborhood surviving against much bigger gangs to use a modern metaphor. Not nearly as powerful as Crips or Bloods, but a small neighborhodd gang that occasionly gets pushed around. The Jews were not nearly as glorious as one may read in the bible.

08-13-2009, 12:10 AM	#76
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	A lot of the Hindu scriptures are about how enormously powerful the various sages were - their amazing mental powers could fry people with a glance etc. etc. Basically just self-aggrandizement on the part of composers of various texts.

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