Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 12-19-2009, 01:25 PM

Who Wrote the DSS from the Smithsonian.

Quote:

Nobody doubts the scrolls’ authenticity, but the question of authorship has implications for understanding the history of both Judaism and Christianity. In 164 B.C., a group of Jewish dissidents, the Maccabees, overthrew the Seleucid Empire that then ruled Judea. The Maccabees established an independent kingdom and, in so doing, tossed out the priestly class that had controlled the temple in Jerusalem since the time of King Solomon. The turmoil led to the emergence of several rival sects, each one vying for dominance. If the Qumran texts were written by one such sect, the scrolls “help us to understand the forces that operated after the Maccabean Revolt and how various Jewish groups reacted to those forces,” says New York University professor of Jewish and Hebraic studies Lawrence Schiffman in his book Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls. “While some sects were accommodating themselves to the new order in various ways, the Dead Sea group decided it had to leave Jerusalem altogether in order to continue its unique way of life.”

And if Qumran indeed housed religious ascetics who turned their backs on what they saw as Jerusalem’s decadence, then the Essenes may well represent a previously unknown link between Judaism and Christianity. “John the Baptizer, Jesus’ teacher, probably learned from the Qumran Essenes—though he was no Essene,” says James Charlesworth, a scrolls scholar at Princeton Theological Seminary. Charlesworth adds that the scrolls “disclose the context of Jesus’ life and message.” Moreover, the beliefs and practices of the Qumran Essenes as described in the scrolls—vows of poverty, baptismal rituals and communal meals—mirror those of early Christians. As such, some see Qumran as the first Christian monastery, the cradle of an emerging faith.

avi · 12-19-2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Lawler in the January 2010 issue of Smithsonian

John the Baptizer, Jesus’ teacher, probably learned from the Qumran Essenes—though he was no Essene, says James Charlesworth, a scrolls scholar at Princeton Theological Seminary.

I wonder how he knows that John, allegedly six months older than Jesus, was the latter's teacher? I wonder how Charlesworth knows that John was "no Essene"....

Strange, that an erstwhile, protoypical, supposed "christian" community, had no mention of Jesus of Nazareth, no graffitti, no texts, no icons, zero. Maybe there is as much relationship between Qumran community of Jews with early Christians as there is between Mayans and early Mormons....

Maybe there is no relationship at all, simply parallel features, such as communal sharing of food (Mohawk Indians living in a "long house"), vows of poverty and chastity (Buddhist monks), and persecution: Tamils.

avi

aa5874 · 12-19-2009, 05:42 PM

But maybe there was a relationship is not compatible with the evidence only compatible with belief without any evidence.

The "may be or may be not" claims must be related to or based on the extant information found in the DSS and the evidence as of now suggests that there was not any relationship.

DCHindley · 12-20-2009, 07:28 AM

Wow ... lots of errors of fact and cliches in there.

There was only one Maccabee, Judas "the hammer" (which is what Maccabee means), who lead a popular revolt against a new High Priest established by the Seleucid king in Syria, who was not of the traditional family and was promoting wholesale assimilation with Hellenism. Members of Judas' family (a brother, and his own descendants), called the Hasmoneans, only began to rule Judea shortly after Judas' death.

They did not overthrow the Seleucid empire, but managed to throw off direct Seleucid control over Judea. Even that was a negotiated settlement, as the Syrian king had bigger fish to fry in the east. The Seleucid empire of Syria continued to thrive just fine for a while after 164 BCE, until the Romans took them over.

I would not say the Hasmoneans "tossed out" the priestly class that ruled the temple. Once they had the ability to do so, they also appointed high priests from outside the family than was traditional, but who held close the traditional Judean religion and values. The priests of the family of "Zadok" could continue to serve in the temple if they wanted to, but were probably no longer on control of rituals or other matters of planning, etc. Changes in ritual probably provoked some priests to leave, believing the changes polluted the temple and the sanctity of the high priesthood itself. It doesn't mean all these dissident priests were of that family.

Even though Lawrence Schiffman carefully calls the sect that likely produced the DSS "the Dead Sea group" the author then jumps to calling them "Essenes" in the next paragraph. There should have been bridge phrases in there, something like "then this group, believed by many scholars to be the Essenes said to live in the region by Jewish and pagan writers, may well represent a previously unknown link between Judaism and Christianity."

I don't know where to begin with the John the Baptist thingy by Charlesworth. Similarities in bathing and morality hardly make it probable that "Essenes" influenced JtB. I think it is more prudent to say that the DSS sect and JtB may have both shared cultural traditions and mores prevalent in Judaism of the day.

Finally, that last paragraph ends with a poorly worded statement. It would have been more accurate to have said: "Some see Qumran as a model for understanding the first Christian congregations, sharing traditions that served as the cradle of an emerging faith."

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Who Wrote the DSS from the Smithsonian.

Quote:

Nobody doubts the scrolls’ authenticity, but the question of authorship has implications for understanding the history of both Judaism and Christianity. In 164 B.C., a group of Jewish dissidents, the Maccabees, overthrew the Seleucid Empire that then ruled Judea. The Maccabees established an independent kingdom and, in so doing, tossed out the priestly class that had controlled the temple in Jerusalem since the time of King Solomon. The turmoil led to the emergence of several rival sects, each one vying for dominance. If the Qumran texts were written by one such sect, the scrolls “help us to understand the forces that operated after the Maccabean Revolt and how various Jewish groups reacted to those forces,” says New York University professor of Jewish and Hebraic studies Lawrence Schiffman in his book Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls. “While some sects were accommodating themselves to the new order in various ways, the Dead Sea group decided it had to leave Jerusalem altogether in order to continue its unique way of life.”

And if Qumran indeed housed religious ascetics who turned their backs on what they saw as Jerusalem’s decadence, then the Essenes may well represent a previously unknown link between Judaism and Christianity. “John the Baptizer, Jesus’ teacher, probably learned from the Qumran Essenes—though he was no Essene,” says James Charlesworth, a scrolls scholar at Princeton Theological Seminary. Charlesworth adds that the scrolls “disclose the context of Jesus’ life and message.” Moreover, the beliefs and practices of the Qumran Essenes as described in the scrolls—vows of poverty, baptismal rituals and communal meals—mirror those of early Christians. As such, some see Qumran as the first Christian monastery, the cradle of an emerging faith.

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12-19-2009, 05:42 PM	#3
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	But maybe there was a relationship is not compatible with the evidence only compatible with belief without any evidence. The "may be or may be not" claims must be related to or based on the extant information found in the DSS and the evidence as of now suggests that there was not any relationship.

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