Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 02-08-2013, 06:42 PM

A house of cards, empty on the inside. Pull out one and the whole shaky construction collapses.

The four 'gospels' the walls at the bottom, topped with a stack of epistles, with the Church Fathers tottering on top.
Careful you don't breath too hard, or it will all come tumbling down.

andrewcriddle · 02-09-2013, 01:53 AM

Copied from an earlier thread

I don't think it would have been possible to do a convincing forgery of Pliny book X without considerable knowledge of the situation in Bithynia around the time Pliny served there.

In practice this requires access to the orations of Dio Chrysostom which were little known in the West before the 1551 printed edition. (Allegedly there was a 1476 printed edition but no copy of it survives and modern scholars doubt if it ever existed.)

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 02-09-2013, 04:18 AM

Isn't that precisely the type of work that would have been rescued from Constantinople? And would not refugees from Constantinople not be expected to bring their own history with them, at least orally?

Pliny's letter might even have been a form of practice essay!

aa5874 · 02-09-2013, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Copied from an earlier thread

I don't think it would have been possible to do a convincing forgery of Pliny book X without considerable knowledge of the situation in Bithynia around the time Pliny served there.

In practice this requires access to the orations of Dio Chrysostom which were little known in the West before the 1551 printed edition. (Allegedly there was a 1476 printed edition but no copy of it survives and modern scholars doubt if it ever existed.)

Andrew Criddle

What you say is not really logical.

The actual contents of the Pliny letter to Trajan about the Christians does NOT require considerable knowledge of the situation in Bithynia.

First of all, there is hardly anything in the letter itself about Bithynia but almost all about the Christians. All that is fundamentally required is that the forger has other letters to Trajan from Pliny when he was in Bithynia.

See http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/jod/texts/pliny.html

In any event, the Christians in Pliny letter to Trajan are most unlikely to be Christians of the Jesus cult because they were engaged in ANIMAL SACRIFICE.

There is no evidence that Christians of the Jesus cult was engaged in ANIMAL SACRIFICE.

Pliny letter to Trajan

Quote:

...For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found....

The Geography of the Jesus cult is NOT found in Bithynia.

mountainman · 02-09-2013, 07:31 AM

Whoever it was that was responsible for the Pliny Letters and its prompt reply by the Lord God Caesar Hadrian wrote the following:

"the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented,
that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that
from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few
purchasers could be found.... "

This does not imply that the Christians were engaged in ANIMAL SACRIFICE.

I think it is supposed to imply that Pliny was so good at stopping the massive contagion of conversion to the new and strange nation of Christians. The people were slowly returning to the pagan church. The Saturday afternoon barbecues after the sacrifice at the temples were becoming popular again. Shrimps on the barbie. Sausage sizzles, etc.

Business was starting to pick up in the meat trade once Pliny put his foot down on this massive contagion of Christians. These people were responsible for an economic crisis in Bythnia because they boycotted the Saturday afternoon BBQ's.

Roger's C. Plinius Secundus (Pliny the Younger) : Letters : Manuscripts and transmission is very informative.

Drews (1912) dismisses the correspondence:

Quote:

Of the younger Pliny it is hardly necessary to speak further in this connection. He was dragged into the discussion of the “Christ-myth” at a late stage, merely to enlarge the list of witnesses to the historicity of Jesus. No one seriously believes that any such evidence is found in Pliny.[1]

In his correspondence with the Emperor Trajan, which is believed to have taken place about the year 113, and which is occupied with the question how Pliny, as Proconsul of the province of Bithynia in Asia Minor, was to behave in regard to the Christians, he informs the Emperor that the adherents of the sect sing hymns to Christ at daybreak “as if he were a god (quasi deo).” What this proves as regards the historical reality of the man Christ we should be pleased to have rationally explained.[2]

What has been said on the subject up to the present is merely frivolous, adapted only to an utterly thoughtless circle of readers or hearers. Yet even a man like Jülicher does not hesitate to quote Pliny among the profane witnesses. He also mentions Marcus Aurelius, who expresses his anger against the Christians in his Meditations (about the year 175!), and assures us that what is meant there by Christianity is the community of those who believed in the Jesus of our and their gospels as their God and Saviour (p. 17). We are grateful for this “information,” but we should have expected that a scholar like Jülicher would have something more serious to tell us on the subject.

[1] 1.↑ It is characteristic of the tactics of our opponents that certain Catholic writers have begun to appeal to Porphyry, the Neoplatonic philosopher, who lived 232-304 A.D. He wrote many works against Christianity, which we know only indirectly from the refutations of Methodius and Eusebius. No one can say precisely what they contained, as the Emperor Theodosius II. prudently ordered them to be burned in public in the year 435. What does that matter to the theologian as long as he can bring one more name into the field?

[2].↑ Moreover, the genuineness of this correspondence of Pliny and Trajan is by no means certain. Justin does not mention it on an occasion when we should expect him to do so, and even Tertullian's supposed reference to it (Apol., cap. ii) is very doubtful. The tendency of the letters to put the Christians in as favourable a light as possible is too obvious not to excite some suspicion. For these and other reasons the correspondence was declared by experts to be spurious even at the time of its first publication, at the beginning of the sixteenth century; and recent authorities, such as Semler, Aubé (Histoire des Persecutions de l'Église, 1875, p. 215, etc.), Havet (Le Christianisme et ses Origines, 1884, iv, 8), and Hochart (Études au Sujet de la Persecution des Chretiens sous Neron, 1885, pp. 79-143; compare also Bruno Bauer, Christus und die Cäsaren, 1877, p. 268, etc., and the anonymously published work of Edwin Johnson, Antiqua Mater, 1887), which have disputed its authenticity, either as a whole or in material points.

DCHindley · 02-09-2013, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Isn't that precisely the type of work that would have been rescued from Constantinople? And would not refugees from Constantinople not be expected to bring their own history with them, at least orally?

Pliny's letter might even have been a form of practice essay!

Wouldn't it be wild if the whole thing was simply a handbook for letter writing style. It doesn't fuss with how to address a letter or close it, just saying what you need to say, and say it nice.

I really don't think so myself, but collections of similar letters from famous people circulated in antiquity, some actually made at the command of the notable. I don't have a reference at hand, but I think it was in Gamble's Books and Readers or Trobisch's Paul's Letter Collection: Tracing the Origins.

DCH

aa5874 · 02-09-2013, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Whoever it was that was responsible for the Pliny Letters and its prompt reply by the Lord God Caesar Hadrian wrote the following:

"the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented,
that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that
from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few
purchasers could be found.... "

This does not imply that the Christians were engaged in ANIMAL SACRIFICE.

I think it is supposed to imply that Pliny was so good at stopping the massive contagion of conversion to the new and strange nation of Christians. The people were slowly returning to the pagan church. The Saturday afternoon barbecues after the sacrifice at the temples were becoming popular again. Shrimps on the barbie. Sausage sizzles, etc.

Business was starting to pick up in the meat trade once Pliny put his foot down on this massive contagion of Christians. These people were responsible for an economic crisis in Bythnia because they boycotted the Saturday afternoon BBQ's...

What you say does not make much sense.

The author of the letter is clearly writing to Trajan because the situation with the Christians is dangerous and may get out of control.

Pliny had executed some Christians, he also sent Roman Christians to Rome for trial and he was torturing others to find out the truth.

The author of the letter appears to extremely worried about the danger of increased Christian activity.

Pliny letter to Trajan

Quote:

..... I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you.

For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved.

For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered.

The author is implying that some Christian cult which was possibly dormant is now returning in large numbers and will ENDANGER the people of Bithynia.

The Pliny letter is about a CRISIS in Bithynia with a Christian cult that was engaged in Animal Sacrifice--Not about a BBQ.

rlogan · 02-09-2013, 04:00 PM

I wanted to point out the geography of the Seven Ecumenical Councils beginning with Nicea in 325 CE. They are listed in the figure below, four separate places of Nicea, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon. All within the red circle.

The Tetrachy (Rule by Four) was instituted by Empreor Diocletian, ruling from the capital city of Nicomedia. The empire was divided into four districts, each one ruled by essentially a King within his own region. This holds from 293-313 CE as Constantine comes to power and unites them under one Ceasar again.

Constantine is educated in Nicomedia, in a liberal atmosphere of Christians and Pagans. He is the first Emperor to declare himself Christian of course. But he supposedly witnesses Diocletian undertake the Great Persecution of Christians during Diocletian's reign.

All of these and more councils too in what is today Turkey, Istanbul being the modern name for Byzantium /Constantinople. These are the seven that are endorsed by every Christian sect. At least one was held prior in the same place under Constantine. It strikes me how Christianity and Roman power was an Eastern (Greek) Empire phenomenon.

Pretty amazing that for half a millenia these councils in the Greek Sphere governed the consolidation and administration of Christianity. If we look back history just a fraction of that time, where are we to look for nascent Christianity? In some distant place?

The language is Greek. Not Latin or Hebrew or Aramaic. A coincidence? It's almpost as if it were Greeks were writing Greeks. At the time these Bible books are written.

What changes everything for Christianity is "Turkey" being over-run by the Muslims of course. That should not lead us to the logical fallacy that Christianity originated in the Western Roman Empire.

mountainman · 02-09-2013, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlogan

That should not lead us to the logical fallacy that Christianity originated in the Western Roman Empire.

Constantine came to supreme military power in the Eastern Empire. He "inherited" Diocletian's "Domesday [gold taxation] Books".

We should not forget to include the Council of Antioch at which c.325 CE Constantine gave his great oration. (See Robin Lane Fox)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acts 11:26

And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

aa5874 · 02-09-2013, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlogan

That should not lead us to the logical fallacy that Christianity originated in the Western Roman Empire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Constantine came to supreme military power in the Eastern Empire. He "inherited" Diocletian's "Domesday [gold taxation] Books".

We should not forget to include the Council of Antioch at which c.325 CE Constantine gave his great oration. (See Robin Lane Fox)..

Constantine did what??? Have you forgotten the "Donation of Constantine"? In order for "The Donation of Constantine" to have remained undetected as a forgery for hundreds of years some accounts of Constantine must have invented.

It is most remarkable that the bishop of Rome c 325 CE was not even named by Eusebius, had no input in the compilation of "Church History" and was not named as an attendee of the Council of Nicea.

"Church History" may be a forgery. Julian the Emperor did NOT acknowledge "Church History" up to the writing of "Against the Galiliean"

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acts 11:26

And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

There was no Jesus cult Christians in Antioch in the 1st century as claimed in Acts. We have the writings of Philo, Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the younger.

There was no Messianic ruler ever identified as Jesus by non-Apologetic writers before the Fall of the Jewish Temple in the History of the Jews from Creation to the end of the 1st century.

02-09-2013, 04:00 PM	#28
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	The Geography of the Seven Ecumenical Councils I wanted to point out the geography of the Seven Ecumenical Councils beginning with Nicea in 325 CE. They are listed in the figure below, four separate places of Nicea, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon. All within the red circle. The Tetrachy (Rule by Four) was instituted by Empreor Diocletian, ruling from the capital city of Nicomedia. The empire was divided into four districts, each one ruled by essentially a King within his own region. This holds from 293-313 CE as Constantine comes to power and unites them under one Ceasar again. Constantine is educated in Nicomedia, in a liberal atmosphere of Christians and Pagans. He is the first Emperor to declare himself Christian of course. But he supposedly witnesses Diocletian undertake the Great Persecution of Christians during Diocletian's reign. All of these and more councils too in what is today Turkey, Istanbul being the modern name for Byzantium /Constantinople. These are the seven that are endorsed by every Christian sect. At least one was held prior in the same place under Constantine. It strikes me how Christianity and Roman power was an Eastern (Greek) Empire phenomenon. Pretty amazing that for half a millenia these councils in the Greek Sphere governed the consolidation and administration of Christianity. If we look back history just a fraction of that time, where are we to look for nascent Christianity? In some distant place? The language is Greek. Not Latin or Hebrew or Aramaic. A coincidence? It's almpost as if it were Greeks were writing Greeks. At the time these Bible books are written. What changes everything for Christianity is "Turkey" being over-run by the Muslims of course. That should not lead us to the logical fallacy that Christianity originated in the Western Roman Empire.

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02-08-2013, 06:42 PM	#21
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	A house of cards, empty on the inside. Pull out one and the whole shaky construction collapses. The four 'gospels' the walls at the bottom, topped with a stack of epistles, with the Church Fathers tottering on top. Careful you don't breath too hard, or it will all come tumbling down.

02-09-2013, 01:53 AM	#22
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	Copied from an earlier thread I don't think it would have been possible to do a convincing forgery of Pliny book X without considerable knowledge of the situation in Bithynia around the time Pliny served there. In practice this requires access to the orations of Dio Chrysostom which were little known in the West before the 1551 printed edition. (Allegedly there was a 1476 printed edition but no copy of it survives and modern scholars doubt if it ever existed.) Andrew Criddle

02-09-2013, 04:18 AM	#23
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Isn't that precisely the type of work that would have been rescued from Constantinople? And would not refugees from Constantinople not be expected to bring their own history with them, at least orally? Pliny's letter might even have been a form of practice essay!

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