Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 10-04-2007, 09:53 AM

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the bit about the "man of sin" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 ("3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." Yeah sure, 2 Thess is disputed by some as "authentic." The PSCO discussion cited above also deals with the state of debate on the relationship of the pastoral epistles to the other undisputed letters. To be honset, there hasn't been much movment since. Anyhow, this seems like a reference to the emperor Gaius' attempt to erect a statue of Zeus (modelled on his own features, of course) in the Jerusalem temple around 39-40 CE.

Did not Hadrian do a similar thing a hundred years later? How do we know which event is being referred to and does this not open questions of dating?

PhilosopherJay · 10-04-2007, 01:15 PM

Hi Toto,

These are good points. We should also keep them in mind. I guess we'll have to do a specific search for information regarding Marcion and women Marcionists to decide the issue.

Anybody have some free time and would like to research it?

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Julian,

In ancient Rome, women were generally considered inferior to men both physically and intellectually. Women were honored mainly for one thing: their ability to give birth. ....

Marcion picks the one thing that women are most honored for in his society and attacks it as a fundamental evil. It is an attack on Greco-Roman society for sure, but it also can be seen as an attack against women.

In the same way, one may take Marcion's attack against childbirth as a direct attack against women, since they are the only sex that gives birth. Marcion does not attack what were considered male virtues -- fighting wars, for example. So we can't take it as simply an attack on Greco-Roman culture.

In theory, women afraid of childbirth might embrace it, but in reality I tend to think that practically all women would have been deeply offended and outraged by it, and that only the most misogynist men would have supported it.

This doesn't seem to jive with what I have read about social customs in the urban Roman Empire, and I don't think you are thinking like a woman in the Roman Empire. Women were sometimes forced to have abortions (which were dangerous in those days), and unwanted offspring were abandoned. Roman women were valued for their beauty as well as their fecundity. A woman might be attracted to Marcion's philosophy for a variety of reasons - avoiding the role of a wife, avoiding sex, pregnancy and the dangers of giving birth.

Julian · 10-04-2007, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Toto,

These are good points. We should also keep them in mind. I guess we'll have to do a specific search for information regarding Marcion and women Marcionists to decide the issue.

Anybody have some free time and would like to research it?

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

I don't think you are giving Marcion his proper due. The guy really believed what he preached, I suspect. You view his stance as an attack on women. Which is very sensible and modern of you. Of course, Marcion was neither. There is no reason to think that he would view it in the same vein since he considered this material world an evil place. Giving birth would be adding to the evil, giving life to another person, another entrapped soul. His concern would have been to escape the world, not add people to it. If his views attacked women it would have been entirely incidental. In addition, it would have been a fairly meaningless point to Marcion who would have looked at you and wondered why you care so much about this place and why you would want to add more suffering. A docetist and flesh, not a great team, traditionally.

Regarding your other post, I recall hearing that Roman women (or rather, women in roman times) would need to have an average of 5 children just to keep the population stable.

Julian

Clivedurdle · 10-05-2007, 01:16 PM

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15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

16

Why is this taken as clear evidence that Matthew is post Hadrian?:devil1:

Ben C Smith · 10-05-2007, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Why is this taken as clear evidence that Matthew is post Hadrian?:devil1:

It is not, as far as I can tell.

A reference to Caligula fits nicely.

Ben.

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