Toto

Why do you think things were more black and white in the 4th century? The proto-orthodox had to work very hard at suppressing heresy, which implies that there was quite a bit of it about.

And the persecuted were slightly less orthodox Christians. So?

We are willing to consider that this was not written by a Christian - if you offer some evidence. So far, I don't see any evidence.

The person who wrote this (I don't think anyone here has claimed that it was Paul) prays in the name of Jesus Christ, so what is the problem with calling him a Christian of some flavor? Remember, the heretics were Christians in their own minds.

What are the alternatives? Would a Jew pray in the name of Jesus? A follower of Isis? A follower of Zeus?

mountainman

There was a religious and political and cultural revolution taking place under the ruling "christian emperors".

Resistance was heresy. Resistance against Christianity was antichristian.

Many of the texts within the NHC are non christian.
We have no guarantee that the authors were a mix
of christians and non christians. We are virtually
guaranteed that the works were considered heretical.


Superficially, there is no problem.


No, no, no not at all - you have it wrong. In the minds of the Christians, the heretics were christians in their own mind. In their own mind they called themselves other names such as Hellenes and Greeks, Jews, Stoics, Platonists, and Pythagoreans. These people did not see themselves as christians.

According the Panarion ("Against Heresies") of Epiphanius of Salamis, bishop of the later fourth century, the first seven heresies (in a compendium of eighty) were as follows: (1) Barbarism, (2) Scythianism, (3) Hellenism, (4) Judaism, (5) Stoicism, (6) Platonism, and (7) Pythagoreanism.


A prayer -- in Coptic, perhaps earlier greek -- consistent of 11 sentences and 19 entreaties in the name of Paul sounds like a Greek political satire. This interpretation exlains why such texts were considered "heretical" by those orthodix christians who preserved the new testament canon. And why the authors were referred to as "vile, unmentionable Gnostic heretics:.

Toto

Not all resistance was heresy. Julian is not referred to as a heretic, but as an apostate. Marcion was called a heretic because he claimed to be a Christian.

We have been through this before and you just keep repeating your assertions, with no evidence or new arguments.

Epiphanius listed every conceivable school of thought, which the usual translation refers to as "sects." The first 20 (including the ones you list) were from before the time of Jesus. Then he he lists heresies that have "Christ's name only, but not his faith." Hellenism, Judaism, and Stoicism are not listed as having Christ's name. (Much of the text is on google books.)

I'm through with this discussion. It's not going anywhere.

mountainman

There was a time when the Dead Sea Scrolls were considered to be "christian documents" by the whole gaggle of mainstream "christian" academics but today we know that the DSS have absolutely nothing whatever to do with the "christians". The "christians" were wrong about the DSS.

In a like manner the Nag Hammadi Codices and the entire corpus of new testament apocryphal literature today are presumed by the "christian scholars" of planet Earth to be "christian documents". The presumption is based on the appearance of references to Jesus and the Apostles in the texts of the NHC, C14 dated to 348 CE, and the subject matter of the NT apocrypha.

IMO the christian academics and scholars of today in this instance have also made a mistake. The documents of the NHC and the NT Apocrypha were not authored by "christians" but by clever academic greek anti-christian satirists who attempted to resist the implementation of the new christian state religion in the fourth century by the authorship and publication of material which was very similar to the new testament canon.

But our generation is fleeing
since it does not yet even believe
that the Christ is alive.

This generation did not believe in the fiction of Jesus. This generation wrote all sorts of ludicrous stories about Paul and Peter and Andrew and Thomas and Matthew and Titus and the Resurrection and Pilate and Domitian and Nero and Annanias. And the Christ, whom they did not believe was anything other than a literary fiction.

They - the Greeks of the eastern empire - had no decorum. They were convinced that the new testament was a fabrication and fiction of men composed by Constantine for the political expediency of uniting the empire in a way which held no alliegences to the extant Greek religions.

And he was crucified and he died - not his own death,
for he did not at all deserve to die because of the church of mortals.
And he was nailed so that they might keep him in the Church.

The Signature of Greek Satire
in more than 20 NT Apocrypha


(1) Syriac Acts of Philip:

If Philip knew neither Latin or Greek was he an illiterate?
Why is Philip so annoying? He orders the captain and passengers around.
Did the wind arise on account of Philip's prayer? Or did it arise because of the Jews blashemy?
Where was the boat bound at high speed? Carthage. What did the Romans do to Carthage?
Why does Philip's Christian Angel bind a Jew by the big toes from the top sail in a gale force wind?
Why does a Christian angel slay 40 Jewish priests?

(2) TAOPATTA (NHC 6.1): The Acts of Peter and the (11, 12 or was it 13?) Apostles

Why does Jesus cite the Bhagvad Gita at Nag Hammadi 6.1? The central figure of the story NHC 6.1 entitled "The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles" is an enigmatic "Pearl Merchant" called Lithargoel. Every single Christian commentator on the planet at the moment (I know of no exceptions) wishes to identify this Lithargoel with Jesus. If so, when Lithargoel is asked the name of the city which houses the :Pearl of great Price" he says that the city is called "Nine Gates"

He said to me, "This is the name of my city, 'Nine Gates.'

The embodied (Soul) who has controlled his nature
having renounced all actions by the mind
dwells at ease in the City of Nine Gates,
neither working nor causing work to be done.

--- Bhagvad Gita 5:13

The more comprehensive explanation for this is that the author is not presenting Lithargoel as Jesus at all. The apostles in their utter ignorance have mistaken Lithargoel for this Jesus character. They do not recognise him! Lithargoel is presented as the standard healer such as the therapeutae of Asclepius, equipped with medicne pouch and apprentice physician. On the other hand, every single line of the story which relates to the apostles casts the apostles as inept and ignorant, fearful and not as "traditional ascetics". The fact of the matter is that the apostles cannot even count, since how many were there? The title TAOPATTA suggests 13. The apostolic tradition (which is being IMO satirised) suggests 12. The text has Peter saying there were 11 apostles who PROSTRATED THEMSELVES in the oriental fashion in favor with Constantine. We are dealing with another satire. Exactly the same invective as Julian's satire against Constantine and Jesus.

(3) The Acts of Andrew and Matthew: The Intrepid Travels to the Land of the Cannibals

Welcome Aboard !!! Why does Jesus drive a Water Taxi in "Acts of Andrew and Matthias" Homerisation of the new testament in fine style. The apostles journey to the Land of the Cannibals. Thousands of poor souls are being devoured each day. But there is a hitch and Mathais gets stuck there. Oh dear! Thousands are being eaten around him!! What does our hero do? He shuts his eyes and prays. Perhaps a miracle will happen? And behold! A rescue mission is mounted by the other apostles. And Jesus appears as the captain of a powerful boat. It has two angels in the back. He says "Welcome Aboard!!".

(4) The Acts of Peter and Andrew - Aggressive wizards, camels, needles.

Peter fits a camel through the eye of a needle!
HELLENISTIC SATIRE of the Apostles - The apostles travel around via a bright cloud.
They have esceped from the Land of the Cannibals. (See above)
Why do the apostles order an angel to suspend a woman by her hair at the city gates while they pass?
The text states "Alas! these are of the twelve Galilaeans who go about separating men from their wives; What are we to do? Who were the Galilaeans? Emperor Julian in 361 CE legislated that the name of the Christians be legally altered to "Galilaeans". Is the author of this text the originator of the perjoritive term "Galilaeans" which Emperor Julian later ran with? The Hellenistic civilisation went down under the waves of the new christian state religion writing satires. They were - at the time - very political. They needed to be buried in order to be preserved. Constantine ediected for their destruction as did every church council in the 4th century and beyond. The prohibited books were listed. It was a hit list for orthodox. Search and destroy these texts. The list itself grew as the centuries past. The list eventually became the Index Librorum Prohibitorum.

(5) The Acts of Thomas:

The Apostles are casting lots to see who is going where: Thomas gets India.
Thomas renegs on the casting of lots, and refuses to go to the Indians.
Jesus appears and orders Thomas to travel to India.
Judas refuses Jesus' commands; Jesus sells him into slavery
Jesus receives a bill-of-sale for the sale of Thomas.

(6) The Act of Peter: Peter forgets to heal his own daughter.

Why does Peter heal the multitudes but fails to heal his own daughter? Another Coptic satire of the fourth century state regime. Here Peter who heals the multitudes from his front porch fails to heal his daughter because it is not expedient to do so.

(7) The Acts of Pilate: The presumed three."Acts of Pilate" are simplified to one

Pilate tells the Jews that Jesus heals by the power of Asclepius
The two scribes "Leucius" and "Karinus" record the saga of the Descent.

(8) The Gospel of Philip: Exactly where did Jesus often kiss Mary?

Exactly where Jesus often kissed Mary Magdalene is emminently questionable. The coptic text of the source document known as the Gospel of Philip is reported to be damaged at that precise place. Poetically, the translators have often opted for "her mouth". Other more conservative alternatives mooted have been .... On her forehead on her cheek on her lips This list is of course not comprehensive. Do we have an image of the coptic page at that precise spot? I for one would love to know exactly where Jesus often kissed Mary. Here are some alternative translations of the passage in question: (1.1) English Translation by Wesley W. Isenberg = And the companion of the [...] Mary Magdalene. [...] loved her more than all the disciples, and used to kiss her often on her mouth. (1.2) English Translated by Anton Teplyy and Dr.Mikhail Nikolenko (2002) = The Lord loved her more than He loved all other disciples and often kissed her on her mouth. (1.3) English Translation and Notes by Paterson Brown = The [Lord loved] Mariam more than [all the (other)] Disciples, [and he] kissed her often on her [mouth].

(9) The Letter of Peter to Philip (NHC 8.2) - In fine Homerian melodrama Jesus asks the apostles "Why [TF] are you asking me"?

An extract ... Then Peter gathered the others also. They went upon the mountain which is called "the (mount) olives," the place where they used to gather with the blessed Christ when he was in the body. Then, when the apostles had come together, and had thrown themselves upon their knees, they prayed thus saying, "Yabba Yabba Yabba Yea hear us!" And they prayed again another time, saying, "Son of life, Son of immortality, who is in the light, Son, Christ of immortality, our Redeemer, give us power, for they seek to kill us!"

Then a great light appeared so that the mountains shone from the sight of him who had appeared. And a voice called out to them saying,

"Listen to my words that I may speak to you.
Why [TF] are you asking me ?

(10) The Acts of Paul:

Aesops Fables in the Acts of Paul (The Baptised Lion Affair) Paul baptises a talking lion in the wilderness. When thrown to the lions at the conclusion Paul meets a christian lion in the arena. SATIRE via AESOP.

(11) The Acts of John:

Jesus does not leave footprints in the sand.
John cannot seem to touch Jesus' physical body

(12) The Gospel of Peter:

Jesus is lead from the tomb and his head is higher than the sky.
The cross follows along behind Jesus at a walk.
The cross speaks its own talk. It says "YEAH!".

(13) Acts of John the Theologian:

The Jews write a book to the Emperor Domitian complaining about the new and strange nation of Christians
The tradition of the Domitian persecution is sourced from this text: Domitian was affected with rage ...


(14) The Gospel of Judas:

Judas is presented as one of twelve "daimons".
None of the twelve "daimons" can look at Jesus in the eyes.
Jesus is presented as a "Head Daimion" or sorceror.


(15) The History of John: (from the Syriac)

The text of this apocryphal act specifically states: "This history was composed by Eusebius of Cæsarea"
The history of John, the son of Zebedee, who lay upon the breast of our Lord Jesus at the supper, and said, "Lord, who betrayeth Thee?" This history was composed by Eusebius of Cæsarea concerning S. John, who found it in a Greek book, and it was translated into Syriac, when he had learned concerning his way of life and his birth and his dwelling in the city of Ephesus, after the ascension of our Lord to Heaven.

(16) The Gospel of Mary

Featured and publicised heavily by Dan Brown in his novel "The Da Vinci Code.
Mary is presented in having exclusive knowledge not given to Peter. As a result, Peter is peeved. "Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us? (4)

(17) The Apocalypse of Peter: (NHC 7.3)

"As the Savior was sitting in the temple in the three hundredth (year) of the covenant ...."
"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons,
as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders.
Those people are dry canals."


(18) Infancy Gospel of Thomas: The Child Jesus as a malevolent trickster wizard

The text describes the life of the child Jesus, with fanciful, and sometimes malevolent, supernatural events, comparable to the trickster nature of the god-child in many a Greek myth. One of the episodes involves Jesus making clay birds, which he then proceeds to bring to life, an act also attributed to Jesus in Qur'an 5:110. In another episode, a child disperses water that Jesus has collected, Jesus then curses him, which causes the child's body to wither into a corpse, found in the Greek text A, and Latin versions. The Greek text B doesn't mention Jesus cursing the boy, and simply says that the child "went on, and after a little he fell and gave up the ghost," (M.R. James translation). Another child dies when Jesus curses him when he apparently accidentally bumps into him. In the latter case, there are three differing versions recorded the Greek Text A, Greek Text B, and the Latin text. Instead of bumping into Jesus in A, B records that the child throws a stone at Jesus, while the last says the boy punched him. When Joseph and Mary's neighbors complain, they are miraculously struck blind by Jesus. Jesus then starts receiving lessons, but arrogantly tries to teach the teacher instead, upsetting the teacher who suspects supernatural origins. Jesus is amused by this suspicion, which he confirms, and revokes all his earlier apparent cruelty. Subsequently he resurrects a friend who is killed when he falls from a roof, and another who cuts his foot with an axe. After various other demonstrations of supernatural ability, new teachers try to teach Jesus, but he proceeds to explain the law to them instead. There are another set of miracles in which Jesus heals his brother who is bitten by a snake, and two others who have died from different causes. Finally, the text recounts the episode in Luke in which Jesus, aged twelve, teaches in the temple.

(19) The Interpretation of Knowledge: NHC 11.1

Text commences ... (13 lines missing) ... they came to believe by means of signs and wonders and fabrications. The likeness that came to be through them followed him, but through reproaches and humiliations before they received the apprehension of a vision they fled without having heard that the Christ had been crucified.

But our generation is fleeing
since it does not yet even believe
that the Christ is alive. .

Further section is cited ...

And he was crucified and he died - not his own death,
for he did not at all deserve to die because of the church of mortals.
And he was nailed so that they might keep him in the Church.

(20) The Exegesis on the Soul: NHC 2.6

Text commences ... Wise men of old gave the soul a feminine name. Indeed she is female in her nature as well. She even has her womb. In this text the sayings of the LXX, and the sayings of Jesus and the sayings of Paul are completed by a trinity of citations from Homers "Odyssey".


(21) Asclepius 21-29: NHC 6.8 - instruction from Hermes (Trismegistus) to Asclepius.

The text reveals the persecution of the epoch.
It may in fact directly refer to Constantine's robbery and destruction of the temples and shrines of Asclepius
and the public execution of the head priests of other temples c.324-337 CE

"Trismegistus, what is the character of the iniquity that is there?"

"Now you think, Asclepius, that when one takes something in a temple, he is impious.
For that kind of a person is a thief and a bandit. And this matter concerns gods and men.
But do not compare those here with those of the other place. Now I want to speak this discourse
to you confidentially; no part of it will be believed. For the souls that are filled with much evil
will not come and go in the air, but they will be put in the places of the daimons,
which are filled with pain, (and) which are always filled with blood and slaughter,
and their food, which is weeping, mourning, and groaning."

"Trismegistus, who are these (daimons)?"

"Asclepius, they are the ones who are called 'stranglers',
and those who roll souls down on the dirt,
and those who scourge them, and those who cast into the water,
and those who cast into the fire, and those
who bring about the pains and calamities of men.
For such as these are not from a divine soul, nor from a rational soul of man.
Rather, they are from the terrible evil."

(22) The Prayer of the Apostle Paul: NHC 1.1

The text reveals that the "Prayer of Paul" consists of 11 sentences containing a total of 19 abrupt demands.....


(23) Plato's Republic at Nag Hammadi: NHC 6.5

Comparing Plato' Republic in the Nag Hammadi coptic to the Original Greek reveals that the monsters of Plato's ancient fables "have now become natural creatures", and are loose in the Republic.


And to conclude this in-progress analysis, although it is not considered as NT Apocrypha, the scathing Greek satire written by the emperor Julian ....

(24) The Satire of Emperor Julian Against Jesus and Constantine

As for Constantine, he could not discover among the gods
the model of his own career, but when he caught sight of
Pleasure, who was not far off, he ran to her. She received
him tenderly and embraced him, then after dressing him in
raiment of many colours and otherwise making him beautiful,
she led him away to Incontinence.

There too he found Jesus, who had taken up his abode with
her and cried aloud to all comers:

"He that is a seducer, he that is a murderer,
he that is sacrilegious and infamous,
let him approach without fear!
For with this water will I wash him
and will straightway make him clean.

And though he should be guilty
of those same sins a second time,
let him but smite his breast and beat his head
and I will make him clean again."

To him Constantine came gladly, when he had conducted his
sons forth from the assembly of the gods. But the avenging
deities none the less punished both him and them for their
impiety, and extracted the penalty for the shedding of the
blood of their kindred, [96] until Zeus granted them a respite
for the sake of Claudius and Constantius. [97]

Toto

When was this?

OK, you've laid out your theory of satire. This will be the only thread for any discussion of satire. Please do not bring the subject up again until there is some progress on this thread, and you find some support for your theories.

mountainman

Who's representatives were first "on the scene"?
Ask "Charles Gadda".

Toto

Please get your facts straight. The Christians who first worked on the DSS all knew that they were Jewish documents - that was never even an issue. "Charles Gadda" is on trial for identity theft.

mountainman

The DSS were held within an extreme secrecy of Roland de Vaux's almost entirely Catholic group between the years 1954 and 1967 when the Israel Antiquities Authority took control of the scrolls. Early theories suggested authorship by the "Essenes" and many christian related theories appeared after that. My point was that the Catholic Church took control of the manuscript evidence -- in a physical manner -- of the "Jewish" DSS for an intitial period.

At the moment, in a parallel fashion (although not in any "physical sense") the Nag Hammadi Codices are presumed to be in the "intellectual philosophical and religious" domain of "early christian literature" and to have been authored originally in variously the first, second, and third centuries, by --- of course christians of some variety.

mountainman

Comparing "Pauls Prayer" with the "NT Lord's Prayer"

"The Lords Prayer"


2.1 "Our Father, which art in Heaven"
2.2 "Hallowed be thy Name"
2.3 "Thy kingdom come"
2.4 "Thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven"

====== Opening Praises but no demands or entreaties so far ...

2.5 "Give us this day our daily bread"

====== A group ("us") request for necessary food.


2.6 "And forgive us our trespasses, as we
forgive them that trespass against us"

====== A conditional group request for "forgiveness of mistakes"

2.7 "And lead us not into temptation"
2.8 "But deliver us from evil"

====== Again "us" - a group. Two requests.

2.9 "For thine is the kingdom, and the power,
and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen"

====== Closing praises to the divinity.


Analysis of the 9 lines of "LORDS PRAYER"

Praises to the divinity: 5
Group Demands/Requests: 3 (food, mistakes, deliverance)
Group Conditional Demands/Requests: 1
Personal Demands/Requests: 0



Analysis of 11 sentences of "PAULS PRAYER"

Personal Demands/Requests: 19 ("Give me authority when I want it!")
Praises to the divinity: 0
Group Demands/Requests: 0
Group Conditional Demands/Requests: 0


Does tradition have it that Paul knew "The Lord's Prayer"?

Paul's Prayer seems to be overly loaded --- saturated! --- with unconditional personal Demands/Requests, and to be totally deficient with respect to Praises to the divinity, Group Demands/Requests, and any form of Group Conditional Demands/Requests. This deliberate imbalance by the NHC author suggests, to me anyway, that we may be looking at an ancient 4th century "Monty Python Version" of "The Prayer of "Paul"