Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stonewall1012 · 07-15-2008, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Lets say, for the sake of argument, that the Samson story is infact a lunar allegory (fwiw, I believe I can argue well for it). Would that be a "pagan ritual"? I dont agree. Perhaps that particular manner of allegorical symbolism is a "pagan tradition", but I dont agree with that either. It also seems to me that you continuously speak of "the Jews", or "they", like they were all exactly the same, like there were no Jewish mystic groups of any kind at all. But obviously Christianity did not come out of mainstream Judaism, and certainly not out of the Temple cultus, we both know that.

I get the feeling that you know a hell of a lot about church history and all kinds of good stuff, but that you don't know much about what the equinox - or rather astronomy as a whole - has meant for the ancient religions as such, including Judaism, since you keep referring to "pagan rituals", which really has little, if anything, to do with it in this context of 1st century mysticism. And if you dont, then you wouldn't understand at all what I'm talking about, and thats fair enough.

Did you know that after ca. 1500 BC the bull gods of several cultures gradually changed into ram gods? Some substituting the sacrificial calf for the lamb. I think its well recognized that this is because the vernal equinoctial cross moved from Taurus the bull into Aries the ram around those centuries. That is, from about 1500 BC the spring equinoctial cross was now fixed in the constellation of Aries the ram for the next ca. 1500 years, and when the sun was on that ram cross at the end of March, it was time to sacrifice a lamb.

And with a quick allusion to my theory, I'd suggest that this is why the Jewish sacrificial lamb was apparantly roasted on a cross at spring equinox (J.Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho). And if thats the case, what in the world makes you think there were no Jews at all anywhere who didn't seize upon that symbolism?

I dont think either that "the Jews" were looking on the "Roman crosses" in 70 AD and said "that reminds me of the sun god and when to plant."
But what I'm saying is: I can easily imagine some fringe mystic cults, gentile or Jewish, around the turn of the era looking at an "enlightened" person's crucifixion taking place at spring equinox (or hearing a story about it) and thinking "that reminds me of the sun". They'd only have to know a tiny bit about astrology, and its almost a given. And then thinking this has some divine significance or something and getting all kinds of crazy mystical and theological meanings out of it.

Now, I'm not saying at all that I'm correct here with my proposition of course, its just suggestions for the sake of exploring. But how can you argue against my theory if you're not even aware of the astronomical traditions to which I allude. Thousands of years of important symbolic tradition, of which you're not even aware, cannot simply be waved off as "pagan ritual", dont you agree?
Unfortunately, we seem to be constantly miscommunicating because of this, I feel.

Cesc: Very well thought out post, you remained calm and communicated your ideas clearly... Good job...

I will admit my ignorance I know some of which you speak however I admit you seem to know much more about astrology than I.
I am not speaking about Jewish thought as if it were static... it was FAR from static. That is one of the on going continual debates in Jewish studies: do the Maccabee's represent "traditional" Jewish thought or do they represent simply the Jewish thought that appears to have "won" out so to speak.

That won't get resolved here. Apocalyptic literature flurished in the 2nd BCE centuries -1 CE. There are lots of forces that worked upon the Jews in this time period, Political pressure, the 2nd Temple, Hellenism, I will add astrology as a possible force. However, there are just not that many clear blatant references to astrology playing a significant roll in Jewish development.

I'm not saying it is impossible, it certainly is. However, most of the scholarly world is going to need more than what you have proposed to believe that astrology played a more important roll in developing Jewish thought than say apocalypic literature,(not that apocalyptic literature was unaffected by astrology there is good evidence is was but numerology seems to have played a much more important roll)which was heavily influenced by hellenistic thought.

Apocalypic literature, Temple worship, Hellenistic syncretism, political upheaval, economic problems, and messaianic expectation are the major themes that most historians study concerning Jewish thought of the 1st century. Astrology and numeralogy certainly played an important roll but I wouldn't replace a single theme above with astrology and numeralogy would you?

Cesc · 07-15-2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonewall1012

Apocalyptic literature flurished in the 2nd BCE centuries -1 CE. There are lots of forces that worked upon the Jews in this time period, Political pressure, the 2nd Temple, Hellenism, I will add astrology as a possible force. However, there are just not that many clear blatant references to astrology playing a significant roll in Jewish development.

If you mean that my paragraph about the 1500 BC equinoctial cross is about astrology, it isn't. Thats astronomy plus what is popularly called "astrotheology", that is, astronomical relations within religion. For example, Venus, the brilliantly shining Morningstar, which can never rise high above the horizon as seen from earth because of its proximity to the sun, thus "aspires to be like the most high" or is "fallen/cast out" from heaven or "chained" to the earth. That would not be astrology, which is something completely different.

I only mentioned astrology one time when talking about a fringe cult being a precursor to Christianity. I never said anything about astrology playing any significant part in the development of later Judaism, which obviously it didnt. Remember, I'm talking about the development of Christianity, not merely Judaism.

I dont think that understanding Judaism in the 1st century is all we need to understand the source of Christianity. Obviously there are some foreign elements other than simply Platonism. Isn't it true that there were all kinds of off the wall Jewish apocalyptic and messianic groups with all kinds of weird beliefs during those centuries leading up to the turn of the era? Consider the Essenes, who, if I'm not mistaken, were steeped in astrology. Just one of the Jewish groups that deviated considerably from the overall development of late Judaism, which is what you speak of.

Quote:

Cesc: Very well thought out post, you remained calm and communicated your ideas clearly... Good job...

Thank you. You wouldn't happen to be a school teacher, by any chance?

spamandham · 07-15-2008, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

What I'm arguing, successfully or not, is firstly that the chi-rho was a symbol for the sun on the cross - the equinox - centuries before the time of Christianity.

This is pretty much already accepted. Constantine merged the cult of Sol Invictus, from which the symbol originates, into Christianity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

And the implications of that symbology of the cross in relation to the profound meaning of the crucifixion in Christianity.

Considering that Christian cross symbolism is not found prior to Constantine (early Christian art focused on Pisces rather than the cross), this is also strongly supported. However, that does not necessitate that the idea of the crucifixion originated in solar symbolism, it merely implies it

.

Cesc · 07-16-2008, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

What I'm arguing, successfully or not, is firstly that the chi-rho was a symbol for the sun on the cross - the equinox - centuries before the time of Christianity.

This is pretty much already accepted.

I'd like to believe that, but how do you know?

Quote:

... the cult of Sol Invictus, from which the symbol originates, ...

How do we know the chi-rho was a symbol for Sol Invictus?

Fortuna · 07-16-2008, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Actually, in this topic i am only interested in evidence for usage of greek term "christ" to something other than christian Jesus, in relation of greek 'christ' to aramaic/hebrew 'messiah', and in use of term 'messiah'.

Dont know if its relevant, but the Ptolemies of the centuries leading up to the turn of the era used the Chi-Rho (XP) which we are told was invented as a symbol for the Greek title "chrestos". Around the time that Ptolemy III was supporting the writing of the Septuagint, in which the translators were using "chrestos" some 30-40 times to translate "messiah", Ptolemy himself was using the Chi-Rho.

Perhaps if you can find out why, you'll take a step in the right direction. If you find out, please let me know!

FWIW, Zecheriah referred to Jesus son of Jehozadak as a "messiah" (4:14, he led the Israelites back to Jerusalem from Babylon after the Restoration), probably translated as "chrestos" in the LXX, I dont know. That would be a Jesus Christ in principle. Not what you're looking for, I suppose.

Hi. Well, I cannot comment on any non-christian "Christos"es, but I can explain the Ptolemaic coin with the chi-rho monogram.

I'm somewhat of an amateur collector myself, but I mostly collect denarii from the early Roman imperial period, but with some exceptions(I've got a great VF silver of Julian the Apostate that Pete would probably love to have).
Anyway I do run into the late Alexandrian Ptolemaics and have read a bit about them.

Basically, the chi-rho on that coin is the monogram of the magistrate that issued the coin (sometimes it is of the magistrate of a particular mint). We should always be cautious when trying to identify who.

OK, to demonstraate that what I'm telling you is true, please review these web pages. One is a numismatic site that talks about coins from this period and about the various features of the coins, about the monograms,etc. Here are some pics(from a numismatic catalog site) of Ptolemaic coins from the same period (Pt III) as the coin displayed, ;

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greec...t/ptolemy_III/
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greec...emy_III/t.html

Here is a coin with a delta-iota monogram(near the bottom of the cornucopiea) ;

Note that these monograms all usually occur on the reverse side and usually towards the bottom (with the eagle image, usually between the eagle's legs,but not always) Here is one with an eagle image but with the monogram off to the side ;

Here is another, with a chi-rho monogram off to the left(reverse side)

You should see the following monograms among others, just from reviewing the pages above ;

Sigma, Omega, lambda, delta-iota, delta-epsilon,chi-rho,"C","L", etc

The point is that, the chi-rho on the coins from that period are those some magistrate of the period. These coins are all from Ptolemy III, and the chi-rho monogram occurs frequently. With a little research we could possibly a candidate for that monogram .

Cesc · 07-16-2008, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fortuna

Basically, the chi-rho on that coin is the monogram of the magistrate that issued the coin (sometimes it is of the magistrate of a particular mint).

Nice, thanks! So it wasn't Ptolemy who used it, but the coin issuer. So a magistrate would use the chi-rho (or another monogram) because it was the monogram for his name or office, would that be correct? I dont know how these ancient monogram things work.

Can you tell me anything about the monograms on this Herod coin, I mean is it also the coin issuer's monogram?

Fortuna · 07-16-2008, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fortuna

Basically, the chi-rho on that coin is the monogram of the magistrate that issued the coin (sometimes it is of the magistrate of a particular mint).

Nice, thanks! So it wasn't Ptolemy who used it, but the coin issuer. So a magistrate would use the chi-rho (or another monogram) because it was the monogram for his name or office, would that be correct? I dont know how these ancient monogram things work.

Can you tell me anything about the monograms on this Herod coin, I mean is it also the coin issuer's monogram?

Isn't that the tau-rho monogram ? I found a similiar Herodian coin online (from Chi-Rho Ancient Coins - seriously, lol), note that it seems to have that same tau-rho monogram.

In the case of these Judean issue coins of Herod, I'm not certian whom the tau-rho monogram refers to. Some research on your part might tell you that answer.

Honestly, I really do not see any evidence here [yet] that demonstrates that the chi-rho icon refers to the equinox or any other celestial event. Thus far it seems that it was used a monogram like any other and could refer to Krestos, Kronos, or any number of names.

That is up until the Christian era when it became the monogram of their Kristos. Constantine in some of the stories sees it in the sky (in others he sees it in a dream). But of course the story itself presupposes that the chi-rho as Jesus's monogram pre-dated Connie.

Thus I think that we don't have any evidence of the chi-rho used as anything other than a monogram, and that it took on significance only with the Christian era as specifically that of Jesus Christ. Nor do I see any usage of it as a celetial icon. The evidence for that is not clear to me.

Cesc · 07-17-2008, 12:13 PM

Yep, prolly a tau-rho monogram, TP. I also came across "Chi Rho Ancient Coins" site lol. Herod's coins used the tau-rho alot apparantly.

I dont see either any real evidence for the chi-rho being anything but a monogram. The only case I can make for that is if this mystical symbol held by Hecate represents Harpocrates. And that, as a solar symbol, this Haropcrates/rho was then placed on top of the chi in the same monogram fashion by solar cults or someone who wanted to use the chi as the equinoctial cross, the comparison Plato had used. With the loop of the rho representing Harpocrates's side-lock. Plus Eusebius in the 4th century writing that it came from "a cross imposed over the sun".
So its not much of a case, at least until I see any evidence that the chi-rho was used as "an emblem of several solar dieties", as altreligion maintains. :huh:

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07-17-2008, 12:13 PM	#28
Cesc Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 322	Yep, prolly a tau-rho monogram, TP. I also came across "Chi Rho Ancient Coins" site lol. Herod's coins used the tau-rho alot apparantly. I dont see either any real evidence for the chi-rho being anything but a monogram. The only case I can make for that is if this mystical symbol held by Hecate represents Harpocrates. And that, as a solar symbol, this Haropcrates/rho was then placed on top of the chi in the same monogram fashion by solar cults or someone who wanted to use the chi as the equinoctial cross, the comparison Plato had used. With the loop of the rho representing Harpocrates's side-lock. Plus Eusebius in the 4th century writing that it came from "a cross imposed over the sun". So its not much of a case, at least until I see any evidence that the chi-rho was used as "an emblem of several solar dieties", as altreligion maintains. :huh:

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