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Old 05-30-2013, 07:57 AM   #21
Sheshbazzar
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So, in the same words, Jesus was born of a woman and born under the law in order to redeem others who were under the law--that is: Jews.
And although there are some who have always disagreed , 'Jews' are human.

....so was the Jew that was born of a woman and born under the law, that redeems men, humans.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:00 AM   #22
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Paul's Jesus definitely spent some time on earth. There would seem to be a significantly greater contradiction if Paul believed Jesus to be born of a woman and born under the law (Galatians 4:4) yet was never on earth.
1A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”a And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. (Revelation 12)

“We also have reason to think, based on certain witness to Marcion’s version of Galatians, and common later tinkering with this passage by orthodox scribes, that the phrase ‘born of woman, born under the Law’ was not in the original.” (Doherty)

You are assuming that Paul was referring to a 1st century Roman-style crucifixion.

Mark 15

v24: does not tell us how they crucified him. Victims could be either nailed or tied to a cross, in various positions and ways, involving affixing, but also sometimes impaling. The "cross" could be a stake or plank, or crossed wood in many different shapes. The author of Mark may be implying nailing, since throughout this scene he is tracking Psalm 22, whose 16th verse says:

Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. (NIV)
Zech 12:10 may also be playing a role:

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Psalm 119:120 (118 in the Septuagint) states:


Nail my flesh with your fear; for I am afraid of your judgments
This verse is cited by the Epistle of Barnabas (5:14) as a prophecy.
Yes. Even those Old Testament passages are accounts of inflictions that would take place on earth, not in any heavenly realm. The Jewish "suffering servant" was an allegory for the Jewish nation suffering at the hands of foreign empires (Babylonians and Syrians). There is no doubt that Christians made a rhetorical connection between the crucified Jesus and the suffering servant, and it still leads to a model of suffering on earth. Crucifixions, be with a cross or a plank, always happened on the earth per either in history or the myth. Why would we be inclined to think it was anything else?
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:10 AM   #23
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The contradiction you pointed out--that the death of Jesus was a sacrifice yet he went on to better things--seems mild in comparison.
It's a contradiction. It needs to be resolved.
I don't disagree. Contradictions in the ancient Christian writings can be strong hints of the theological dynamics. Here is how I make of it (to repeat myself):
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I believe such an incongruence follows from the hasty rationalization of the crucifixion of Jesus. The execution of Jesus didn't quite fit with what they already believed about Jesus--that Jesus would lead them to a new kingdom of God--so they did the best they could to make it part of God's plan all along.
The most fitting theological analogy they had on hand was the Jewish ritual of atoning for sins through animal sacrifice. So, they ran with it, and it worked. They still had to believe it at the same time as believing that Jesus was the Son of Man who would lead them all to the Kingdom of God. They had no choice but to believe both.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:12 AM   #24
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Why would we be inclined to think it was anything else?
Because E.D. has a theory.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:13 AM   #25
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Yes. Even those Old Testament passages are accounts of inflictions that would take place on earth, not in any heavenly realm. The Jewish "suffering servant" was an allegory for the Jewish nation suffering at the hands of foreign empires (Babylonians and Syrians). There is no doubt that Christians made a rhetorical connection between the crucified Jesus and the suffering servant, and it still leads to a model of suffering on earth. Crucifixions, be with a cross or a plank, always happened on the earth per either in history or the myth. Why would we be inclined to think it was anything else?
Aristides in his "Apology" explained what Christians believed. There is no need to guess.

The Son of God came down from heaven and LIVED in the daughter of Man.

Aristides' Apology
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The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High.

And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man.

This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time ago was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it.

This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished.

But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried; and they say that after three days he rose and ascended to heaven.

Thereupon these twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and kept showing his greatness with all modesty and uprightness. And hence also those of the present day who believe that preaching are called Christians, and they have become famous.
We know EXACTLY what Jesus cult Christians believed in antiquity.

They believed the Jews KILLED the Son of God who came down from heaven and lived on earth.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:21 AM   #26
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The contradiction you pointed out--that the death of Jesus was a sacrifice yet he went on to better things--seems mild in comparison.
It's a contradiction. It needs to be resolved.
But then the story is that he first came from those 'better things' to do a job, and to perform a service for his Father.

The assignment completed and service done, he returned to his exquisite family estate to get the house all prepared for the arrival of his newly adopted family members.
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Old 05-30-2013, 09:11 AM   #27
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I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. (Philippians 1:23-24)

So Paul desired to end his earthly existence because being dead/the after life was "better by far" than this life.

It follows then that, for Jesus, his death was also a welcome release from this "inferior by far" life. It follows then that Jesus' death was not a sacrifice of any sort because Jesus, as the first Christian, was not giving up anything of value in this life compared to the "better by far" next life.

So what are we to gather from this apparent contradiction?

It's not a contradiction, if Paul's Jesus never walked the earth.


except in context

Paul only wants the next life, because Jesus is there in death.



If anything that is more evidence Paul didnt place Jesus as a celestial only deity, as the only way Paul can be with him is in death.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:06 AM   #28
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This place used to be a lot more open and receptive to skeptical and competing ideas.
Now it is more concerned with establishing some patina of 'respectability', and thus is becoming transformed into a bastion of 'the status quo', 'convention' and to the maintenance of good old boys academic cliques frozen in time opinions.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:18 AM   #29
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Are you aware that Paul claimed he persecuted the Churches of Christ?
Yes. But what did those churches believe? Did they worship a recently deceased Judean carpenter? Or a cosmic Christ?
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Christ of the Churches MUST predate Paul's Christ.
I agree. Gnosticism predates Paul's Christ.
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Paul's Christ is the Later Christ.
I agree that Paul adopted the already existing idea of the Gnostic Christ.

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u]Galatians 1[/u]
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21Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;22And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ
Maybe what really bugged Pharisee Saul was the Gnostic renunciation of a physical resurrection?

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You were also taught that the Pauline letters were unknown to the author of Acts. You did not learn all that I taught.
"Recent studies have revised the judgment that the author of Acts was unaware of the Pauline letters. Convincing arguments have been made especially in the case of Galatians by scholars who are convinced that the author of Acts not only knew this Pauline letter but regarded it as a problem and wrote to subvert it.4 They especially call attention to the verbal and ideational similarities between Acts 15 and Galatians 2 and show how the dif-ferences may be intended to create a distance between Paul and some of his later interpreters and critics."

4 See Pervo, Dating Acts; Heikki Leppä, “Luke’s Critical Use of Galatians” (Ph. D. diss., University of Helsinki, 2002); William O. Walker, Jr., “Acts and the Pauline Corpus Reconsidered.” JSNT 24 (1985): 3-23; Walker, “Acts and the Pauline Corpus Revisited: Peter’s Speech at the Jerusalem Conference,” in Literary Studies in Luke-Acts: Essays in Honor of Joseph B. Tyson (ed. Richard P. Thompson and Thomas E. Phillips; Macon, Ga.: Mercer University Press, 1998), 77-86.

http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/actapo358006.shtml
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Pauline letters were composed After Acts of the Apostles.
See above.

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of the Apostles does not state anywhere at all that Jesus was a Judean carpenter.
True. I was alluding to the fact that Acts portrays Jesus as a recently deceased Judean. I apologize for the confusion.

Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. (Acts 2)

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Acts of the Apostles is a product of fiction with the invented Activities of the Apostles including Paul. In fact, the character called Saul/Paul is mentioned more than Jesus or Peter and the author dedicated 13 chapters alone for Paul.
On that we agree.

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the way, up to the mid 3rd century it was NOT taught that Jesus was a carpenter..
So Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 are 3rd century interpolations? Or are you saying that Matthew and Mark were not written until the 3rd century despite Irenaeus announcing them to the world in 180 AD?

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u]Origen's Against Celsus[/u]
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....... in none of the Gospels current in the Churches is Jesus Himself ever described as being a carpenter.
Then I guess your argument is that Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 are 3rd century interpolations. I'm OK with that.

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You must present the evidence for your claims based on the rules of the forum.
I cannot prove that Paul argued against an idea that did not arise until after he died.
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Old 05-30-2013, 12:12 PM   #30
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"Jesus Christ our Lord, was made of the sperma of David according to the flesh;" (see Rom 1:3)
THe following cite provides an argument for Romans 1:3 being an interpolation.
http://vridar.info/xorigins/Romans/1_2-6.htm

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The only Biblical reference to the betrayal of the Lord 'Jesus' -'that night' - is in a setting upon earth, and is found in Luke 22.
The Last Supper (Mark 14:17-31)

All critics recognize the seed of the last supper story in Psalm 41:9, “Even my bosom friend, in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me.” Frank Kermode has traced (pp. 84-85) the logical process whereby the original, entirely and abstractly theological claim that Jesus had been “delivered up” (paredoqh, Romans 4:25) has been narratized. From God having “handed over” his son for our sins grew the idea that a human agent had “betrayed” him (same Greek word). For this purpose, in line with anti-Jewish polemic, a betrayer named Judas was created. His epithet “Iscariot” seems to denote either Ish-karya (Aramaic for “the false one)” or a pun on Issachar, “hireling” (Miller, p. 65), thus one paid to hand Jesus over to the authorities. Much of the Last Supper story is taken up with this matter because of the mention of the betrayer eating with his victim in Psalm 41.

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm

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, consistently throughout the Bible 'night' is a condition that is experienced by humans upon earth. (see Gen 13:9, 30:16, Ex 12:42, 2 Kings 19:35 and many more.)
And sometimes in the Bible "night" is a condition experienced in the spiritual realm.

Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”

Revelation 7:15
Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And sometimes in the Bible "night" is a spiritual condition.

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.

1 Thessalonians 5:5
You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
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