Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 04-30-2006, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punk77

In one of the earlier posts - sorry I don't have time to link to it just now - the poster was saying that there were none 'righteous' in the Old Testament, but according to Jesus

Luke 15:7

I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

In the dictionary that I use (Chambers Dictionary - Chambers Harrap Publishers Ltd) both words - just and righteous - are synonymous. Do any posters know if they mean the same in Aramaic/Greek/Hebrew?

Does it not follow that if there already existed at least ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance then they got there through following Old Testament guidelines?

I am aware of the argument that none were (or are) "just" or "righteous" by obedience to the letter of The written Law.
That does not however mean that there were none who were, "just" and "righteous".
Abel was a just and righteous man in his generation without The Laws
Noah was a just and righteous man in his generation without The Laws
Abraham was a just and righteous man in his generation without The Laws
Moses was a just and righteous man in his generation without The Laws
Moses was a just and righteous man in his generation with The Laws
Because He did NOT, and would NOT enter into that Covenant which he had set before the Children of Israel, nor did he permit ANY under his leadership to enter into that Covenant of DEATH
(No "circumcision, in the eighth day"= No Covenant, The Law made void through faith, by Moses)
After that generation, The Law needed to become effective to bring the nation of Israel into being, at that time "No Law" would have = No Israel, as it is even to this day, The People of The Book, are no nation without The Book.

Dina Noun · 04-30-2006, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punk77

Thanks for both replies

. I didn't know that Enoch and EliYAH were meant to have eternal life as well.

Three of them (Lazurus, Enoch and EliYAH) have traceable ancestors but the fourth (Melchizedek/Melchisedec) is

Heb 7:3
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life....

Would that not make him a God of some type too?

And let's not forget Mary, who was born of a virgin herself, and being the perpetual virgin and sinless, ascended to heaven without dieing.

But of course, all that religious mumbo jumbo is just utter nonsense.

Dina Noun · 04-30-2006, 02:01 PM

Of course, as to whether or not the Law changed with Jesus, the obvious answer is NO ... I mean YES ... I mean NO ... I mean ... who knows! As usual, the Bible contradicts itself.

Jesus starts off making very explicit statements about NOTHING being changed in the Law.

Quote:

[Jesus said,] “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.”
(Matthew 5:17-18)

But then He turns right around and Himself redefines parts of the Law in Matthew 5:21-22; 5:27-28; 5:31-32; 5:33-35; 5:38-39; 5:43-45; and 19:8-9.

Sheshbazzar · 04-30-2006, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punk77

In one of the earlier posts - sorry I don't have time to link to it just now - the poster was saying that there were none 'righteous' in the Old Testament, but according to Jesus

Luke 15:7

I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

In the dictionary that I use (Chambers Dictionary - Chambers Harrap Publishers Ltd) both words - just and righteous - are synonymous. Do any posters know if they mean the same in Aramaic/Greek/Hebrew?

In the Hebrew the root word is "tzadaq" and underlies the English translations "just" and "righteous"

Quote:

Does it not follow that if there already existed at least

ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance

then they got there through following Old Testament guidelines?

"Old Testament guidelines" -IS- the critical distinction here, because there was "The Law (ha'Torah) which was written", now commonly known as "The Old Testament" the books we now have, and can hold in our hands and read,
And "The Law (ha'Torah) which was SPOKEN, with the latter overriding and interpreting the former.

It ought to be further clarified here, that the word "Torah" is not constrained only to meaning, "The Law" in a legalistic sense, but is also the word for "doctrine", or the actual spoken "teaching" and "persuasion", which may be the complete opposite of what the written form seems to indicate.

Thus we have Moses giving a written "Torah-doctrine-law", (requiring circumcision in the eighth day, without exception) and then by his SPOKEN "Torah-doctrine-law", Exempting, excusing, and FORBIDDING all of his followers from the doing of the written injunction.
Thus even for Moses, his "guidelines" were not the words written down in the book, but obedience to The WORD that entered into his ears, and lodged in his heart.

In speaking as an oracle of YHWH, (1 Peter 4:11) I am right to also say, that contrary to The written Law, that YHWH does NOT desire any more bloody foreskins from men, or for His people to stone their own children, nor the adulterers, nor the man that lies with man, or to not permit a witch to live, and many, many, other things that are contrary to The written Law.
Sound doctrine begins with The written Law, but concludes only in compassion and in mercy, and in judgment, and in justice, and in truth.

punk77 · 05-01-2006, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

In the Hebrew the root word is "tzadaq" and underlies the English translations "just" and "righteous"

"Old Testament guidelines" -IS- the critical distinction here, because there was "The Law (ha'Torah) which was written", now commonly known as "The Old Testament" the books we now have, and can hold in our hands and read,
And "The Law (ha'Torah) which was SPOKEN, with the latter overriding and interpreting the former.

It ought to be further clarified here, that the word "Torah" is not constrained only to meaning, "The Law" in a legalistic sense, but is also the word for "doctrine", or the actual spoken "teaching" and "persuasion", which may be the complete opposite of what the written form seems to indicate.

Thus we have Moses giving a written "Torah-doctrine-law", (requiring circumcision in the eighth day, without exception) and then by his SPOKEN "Torah-doctrine-law", Exempting, excusing, and FORBIDDING all of his followers from the doing of the written injunction.
Thus even for Moses, his "guidelines" were not the words written down in the book, but obedience to The WORD that entered into his ears, and lodged in his heart.

In speaking as an oracle of YHWH, (1 Peter 4:11) I am right to also say, that contrary to The written Law, that YHWH does NOT desire any more bloody foreskins from men, or for His people to stone their own children, nor the adulterers, nor the man that lies with man, or to not permit a witch to live, and many, many, other things that are contrary to The written Law. Sound doctrine begins with The written Law, but concludes only in compassion and in mercy, and in judgment, and in justice, and in truth.

Thanks for the reply and information

.

Quote:

Thus we have Moses giving a written "Torah-doctrine-law", (requiring circumcision in the eighth day, without exception) and then by his SPOKEN "Torah-doctrine-law", Exempting, excusing, and FORBIDDING all of his followers from the doing of the written injunction.
Thus even for Moses, his "guidelines" were not the words written down in the book, but obedience to The WORD that entered into his ears, and lodged in his heart.

To me the above does not make any sense. Why go to all the trouble of issueing a written law and then telling people to ignore them. Though it does fit in with the two different sets of Ten Commandments (Ex 20/Ex34).

Quote:

that YHWH does NOT desire any more bloody foreskins from men, or for His people to stone their own children, nor the adulterers, nor the man that lies with man, or to not permit a witch to live, and many, many, other things that are contrary to The written Law.

I still cannot see how if it is wrong now do the above it was not wrong then. People were using the law that was meant to have been handed down by God - it was tough luck on the people who fell foul of it before God decided that he did not desire any more foreskins, stoned children etc. What possible benefit could an all-powerful God have in collecting foreskins, having children stoned etc:huh:.

Sheshbazzar · 05-01-2006, 08:46 PM

It was wrong even back then (that was the point of Moses resisting)
YHWH had no desire for, and no pleasure in such things (nor in all of the gold and silver that was collected and donated for Temple use)
But for the people to become separated from, and distinct from the surrounding peoples, a set of rules was given that would distinguish them, and make them "set apart" from others, A "Holy" (set-apart) people unto Him.
The written Torah, as we have it, contains perhaps less than one hundredth of one percent of what Moses actually spoke to restrain the people from the "doing" of The written Law.
Only after his death, did the vengeful and bloodthirsty among the people begin to use those Laws as a means to wreck their havoc upon their fellows.
But the more merciful among Judaism have a very long history of not literally carrying out the more onerous of these laws and statutes, As per my earlier inquiry, when was the last time on record that any Jewish community actually joined in the stoning of a disobedient child?

noah · 05-03-2006, 03:29 AM

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Of course being righteous is possible, Hearing YHWH's WORD, they that hear His WORD, know that it is the RIGHT thing to obey His WORD.

Quote:

The Nations (ha' Goyim) that believe on Him are saved by faith

Not faith in the Paulinian sense Sheshbazaar.

Quote:

Noah, a righteous man in his day, "found "grace" (favor) in the eyes of YHWH", and YAH-YHWH both Saved and Delivered him without any requirement for a bloody foreskin,

Not grace in the Paulinian sense Sheshbazaar

Quote:

Indeed Scripture shows that YHWH's people had no such requirement nor custom until YHWH instituted it with Abraham, and that Abraham walked in the favor ("grace"), blessings and council of YHWH until he was 99 years of age, being found righteous, without any circumcision in the foreskin of his flesh, and his righteousness was not by The Law, or by any reading of Holy writ, but only by the hearing of the voice that spoke with him in the way, and it is recorded that "Abraham believed YHWH, and He accounted it to him for righteousness." (Gen. 15:6) while yet in uncircumcision.

None of this proves that Yahweh ever abolished his laws or that he ever replaced them with Paulinian grace

Quote:

And Moses, as you now confess, "got a temporary pass from Yahweh",

I don't confess this at all. I said "according to you". Please show me in scripture where Yahweh gave Moses the pass.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill with this whole Moses episode and betraying a fundamental lack of any understanding of Torah or your God's laws.

First of all, you don't understand this episode. You have no scriptural support for your assertion that Jesus was somehow inserted into this episode.

Second children got circumcised later so the Law was upheld.

Third, Moses according to the Law himself was circumcised.

Fourth, in order to avoid God's wrath, Moses' wife circumcised their child.

Fifth, this episode is the subject of discussion and extrapolation among Jewish scholars. Although no one knows for sure, there is a consensus that the children were not circumcised because the Jews were under threat and when you are under threat you get a pass on all the laws (except six I believe) including circumcision.

There is also a question as to whether this circumcision was a SECOND circumcision prior to entering Eretz Yisrael or a first.

You are trying to create a rule out of an exception you don't understand Sheshbazaar

Sixth, your interpretation of this episode contradicts your God's many declarations about his Laws. Nowhere in any of your God's Laws is there any mention of Jesus. You keep ducking this point.

You seem to be really into the idea of flesh and circumcisiun Sheshbazaar. Well if you want to get into flesh how about the idea that your God wrote his laws into your flesh. Your God wrote his laws into your very DNA:

Genesis 17:7

Quote:

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Quote:

both him and the millions that were with with him, that followed The WORD regarding NOT obeying The Laws of circumcision.

Your use of the WORD is misleading. You are referring here to the Johannine WORD and you are wrong. There is no mention of the WORD anywhere in the relevant scripture discussed here.

Quote:

No, noah, I did not forget that part, and in fact I was the first to mention that fact in an earlier post in this same thread.

Really? Please show me where in the thread you have already mentioned this.

Quote:

But Moses, whom did he ever circumcise in the foreskin of the flesh?

Moses was circumcised. And if you read Torah you'll see that his wife circumcised their child to avoid G-d's anger

Quote:

Scripture records not one single instance, and even when it was in his power to circumcise or cause to be circumcised, millions he stayed every hand, resisting both The Law and The Tradition.

Uhh, Sheshbazaar, the children did get circumcised so the Law was upheld.

Quote:

Because there was with him a WORD greater than the sum of all of The Law,

What on earth are you talking about? Where in scripture is this little diddy?

Quote:

which WORD he heard and obeyed, and worked on circumcising the foreskins of their stony hearts, and the foreskins of their closed ears, and the foreskins covering and blinding their eyes, and the foreskins of their lips, that prevented them from giving YHWH the praise due his Name.

What are you talking about? Do you have any scripture to back this up?

Quote:

And in doing this Moses was righteous,

Moses was circumcised. His son was circumcised to avoid yahweh's anger and the children did get circumcised. So what's your point?

Quote:

but if he had not heard and hearkened unto that WORD to do as He spoke, but had only done according to what was written in The Book of The Law, then ALL of Israel would have died in that wilderness.

Total unbiblical ad-lib.

I did not, and do not, create any rule or law regarding YHWH's chosen.

Quote:

It is YHWH Himself whom has in His abundant mercy, and according to all the the promises He has made, Made His exception (-exemption-) to become both the RULE and The Law for ALL of them whom He intends to save and deliver out of this wilderness of Sin;

Yes, and as he says time and again his laws are the ticket out of sin and into salvation. Yahweh makes no mention of Jesus anywhere in his Laws Sheshbazaar.

Quote:

Multitudes out of every Nation and kindred and tongue, even all who believe on Him, and are not condemned.

Book/Chapter/Verse?

Quote:

Preaching

Thank you for this repeated compliment noah, The Scriptures do also say a few things regarding them that preach. Are you as versed in those sayings as you are those of the Law?

Yeah and you're no preacher or deliverer of Yahweh's laws or anything else that is xian. Your misrepresentation of scripture here is proof of that.

Quote:

The Law is brutal and unmerciful, but The WORD of which I speak is kind, and merciful, and forgiving.

Sure but it's nowhere in Yahweh's laws is it Sheshbazaar?

Quote:

This WORD requires none of the rigmarole and rituals of the old, arcane, and poorly understood customs and traditions written down in old books,

Boy you got that right. Your own misunderstanding of Torah is enough to confound and something to behold.
I love the way you profane and misrepresent your God and his Laws and then try to sound as though you have this intimate understanding of his will. Too much

but only that a man love his Maker with all of his heart, mind, and strength, and love his neighbor as himself. maintaining a clear conscience in all that he says and does.

Quote:

For The Deliverance comes not by the means of him that wills, or by the means of him that works, But is the free gift from Him that promises, and the belief of the heart is accounted as righteousness. (not the works of, or mutilations of the flesh)

Wrong. Salvation comes through obeying your God's laws.

Quote:

The Scriptures were written for our learning, and to get understanding, and all that befell The Fathers, Moses, Israel, and the prophets was for our edification (else would have been left unrecorded)

No. The Scriptures were written as a manual for salvation. Your god himself says so.

Quote:

That Moses and the millions of his followers were -exempted- from a need to be obedient to the foremost requirement of The Law, a requirement that by its very nature, would EXCLUDE them from any further requirement of That Law, then that entitlement would be no small or insignificant matter.

No scriptural support anywhere for this.

Quote:

If I follow The Voice that Moses followed, and OBEY The WORD that Moses obeyed, I am likewise entitled to break The Law, being under the Self-same WORD of -exemption- as he and his followers were.

If you break your God's Laws you are guilty of breaking your God's Laws. Period. Read the Pentateuch sometime. ALL of it.

Quote:

Or on a simpler level, as a follower of Moses, it is only natural that I should do what he by his own example and results, has shown to be the right course and the right thing to do.

So Moses is your God now?

Moses withstanding the commandment of The Law,was not just any "someone else".

Quote:

We are all to learn, both from his words, and from his doings, The Way that IS acceptable to YHWH.

Yeah, and that's obeying his commandments

Quote:

YHWH raised up The Nation of Israel, with the greater goal that through them, He would in the fullness of time, redeem all of those of the Nations to whom He had not formerly spoken, nor made partakers in His Covenants, nor His Laws.

Actually yahweh intended Israel to be a light unto the gentiles that they may hear and obey his laws and thereby be saved as Isa 51:4

Quote:

Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

and Isa 56:6

Quote:

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

make perfectly clear for those who care to read them

noah · 05-03-2006, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar [QUOTE

I post to reveal all those matters that such as noah would rather ignore.

What? What have I ignored? You have yet to offer any scripture in support of your assertions and your misrepresentation of your God's laws and that episode with Moses are proof of your ignoring all relevant matters.

Quote:

Where in all of this thread has been his explanation for why, or for what reason Moses and all of the those millions of Israelites disobeyed the commandment of circumcision? The very sign of the Covenant, which no man could partake in except that he had that sign of a severed foreskin.

You have offered no scriptural support for your interpretation of this Moses episode. None.

Quote:

I have presented in answer to this threads question "When and where are the OT laws repealed?" evidence from the Scriptures (agreeing with noah on the point) That The Laws never have been "repealed"

Of course they have. When you tell people not to obey laws, that they have been replaced you have in effect repealed them. You have rendered them irrelevant.

Quote:

But I also presented evidence that there has always been an -exemption- clause inherent, this of course does fall within the province of "preaching", however a discussion that would choose to totally neglect how Moses and his millions of followers acted with respect to obeying ALL of The Law, would be less than complete. (putting it mildly)
My motive is to shine the light of the WORD of truth

Tell me Sheshbazaar, how did the Jews manage to miss this message of yours? It's their laws they seem to think they have to obey the Laws of Yahweh.

Quote:

into that place that the atheists participating in this thread would rather remained in the dark and out of sight

You can't support this assertion. Why make it. The atheists have been citing Book/Chapter/Verse from the beginning of this thread and all you have done is go on and on about circumcision and an episode with Moses that you clearly don't understand and that makes no mention of Jesus.

Quote:

Doing this whether it be effective or not, is a ethical mitzva to me,

Your misunderstanding of Judaism is something else. It really is.

noah · 05-03-2006, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah
Why did your God issue his laws if they were so unfair and impossible to obey?

To show that we need a savior and cannot comply with God's standards by our own efforts.

Really? Where does it say that? I just went through Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Isaiah, Ecclesiastes, Numbers, Psalms, Deuteronomy, Mathew, Mark, Luke and 1 John and so far I have found no scriptural support for your assertion here.

noah · 05-03-2006, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Nobody is called righteous in the OT, except Noah

Wrong. The OT abounds in references to "the righteous".
If you're going to argue it is only a figurative reference then the same applies to the "wicked" as well and there goes your theology.

Psalm 7:11 makes clear that there are righteous people. God judges them

Quote:

God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Or is God hallucinating?

Is God hallucinating visually, is he hearing things here when he casts his gaze on the righteous ans hears their cries:
Psalm 34:15

Quote:

The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.

Is the Psalmist hallucinating here:

Psalm 32:11

Quote:

Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart

Proverbs 10:21 tells us the righteous give good advice:

Quote:

The lips of the righteous feed many

Quote:

Isn't that a clue to you that nobody, I mean nobody, is righteous in God's eyes, rebutting noah's claim that the Law makes you righteous.

It's not my claim. there are many references to the righteous in the bible.
They're not all figurative.

Quote:

the fictious concept of a man who keeps the entire law

Elizabeth and Zacharias? Asa?

Quote:

And hence the Law cannot save.

I really do recommend you read a little scripture at some point:

Psa 119:106-118
106I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments.

Quote:

107 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word.

108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

109 My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law.

110 The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts.

111 Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart.

112 I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end.

113 I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.

114 Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.

115 Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.

116 Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.

117 Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe: and I will have respect unto thy statutes continually.

118 Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood.

Psalm 119:152-160

Quote:

152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.

153 Consider mine affliction, and deliver me: for I do not forget thy law.

154 Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word.

155 Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.

156 Great are thy tender mercies, O LORD: quicken me according to thy judgments.
157 Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies.

158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.
159 Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O LORD, according to thy lovingkindness.
160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Mathew 5:17-20:

Quote:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:17

Quote:

but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matt. 24:35

Quote:

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away

Now, what was that about your God's Laws not saving?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-01-2006, 08:46 PM	#236
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	It was wrong even back then (that was the point of Moses resisting) YHWH had no desire for, and no pleasure in such things (nor in all of the gold and silver that was collected and donated for Temple use) But for the people to become separated from, and distinct from the surrounding peoples, a set of rules was given that would distinguish them, and make them "set apart" from others, A "Holy" (set-apart) people unto Him. The written Torah, as we have it, contains perhaps less than one hundredth of one percent of what Moses actually spoke to restrain the people from the "doing" of The written Law. Only after his death, did the vengeful and bloodthirsty among the people begin to use those Laws as a means to wreck their havoc upon their fellows. But the more merciful among Judaism have a very long history of not literally carrying out the more onerous of these laws and statutes, As per my earlier inquiry, when was the last time on record that any Jewish community actually joined in the stoning of a disobedient child?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.