Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ktsai · 11-05-2007, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shirley knott

I think it would more productive to inquire of your friend what he thinks a 'prophecy' is. Specifically, how is a prophecy different from a prediction, a lucky guess, a coincidence, etc.
The 'argument from fulfilled prophecy' is one of the more ludicrous attempts to justify belief. The absurdity tends to become clear when one focuses on just what the claim to 'prophecy' actually amounts to.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

I took your advice and asked him to specify the difference between prediction and prophecy...this is what he wrote:

A prediction is picking one of the possibilities of a foreseen event.
A divine prophecy is an unforeseen event by humans. Only a divine entity could possibly know.

I'm guessing that the difference is only one of probability. One with a very low probability is called prophecy. Others are called predictions. :huh:

ktsai · 11-05-2007, 07:33 PM

Quote:

but how many buildings from 70AD are still standing today? Most ancient cities have been sacked, burnt down, or abandoned at least once in their history.

I think this is something that is many times over looked, yet is a very important variable. I didn't even think of this, but be sure I'll be mentioning it.

neilgodfrey · 11-06-2007, 01:33 AM

What have archaeological digs uncovered re these walls? Has any part been found? If so, was any stone still resting upon another?

Jack the Bodiless · 11-06-2007, 03:58 AM

Once you've elimintated the "prophecies" written after the event, and the ones where there is no independently-verifiable fulfilment, and the ones that are too hopelessly vague to be useful, and the out-of-context quotes (e.g. claiming that references to the return from the Babylonian exile actually refer to the re-emergence of Israel in the 20th century)...

...there is nothing left.

So, turn the tables: why are there actually NO verifiably-successful prophecies in the Bible?

There are several failed ones (Tyre, Babylon etc). So, is the Bible supernaturally inaccurate, with its 0% hit rate?

shirley knott · 11-06-2007, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktsai

Quote:

Originally Posted by shirley knott

I think it would more productive to inquire of your friend what he thinks a 'prophecy' is. Specifically, how is a prophecy different from a prediction, a lucky guess, a coincidence, etc.
The 'argument from fulfilled prophecy' is one of the more ludicrous attempts to justify belief. The absurdity tends to become clear when one focuses on just what the claim to 'prophecy' actually amounts to.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

I took your advice and asked him to specify the difference between prediction and prophecy...this is what he wrote:

A prediction is picking one of the possibilities of a foreseen event.
A divine prophecy is an unforeseen event by humans. Only a divine entity could possibly know.

I'm guessing that the difference is only one of probability. One with a very low probability is called prophecy. Others are called predictions. :huh:

Actually, this is a distinction without a difference. In all cases a human is involved, so it is at best special pleading to insist that in one case there is "choice amongst alternatives" and in the other there is "an event unforeseen by humans".
I would point that out, as it gets closer to the nub of the issue -- all references to prophecy are cheats on already known human phenomena.
The claim seems always to boil down to "but it's a propehcey because god told me". But that is an unsupportable claim, and certainly not a claim that cannot be made to justify the existence of prophecy if prophecy is to justify a belief in the existence of a god.
(Also, this distniction does not rule out coincidence -- a science fiction author may fantasize something that later exists -- how is this not prophesy? No god invovled? ...)

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

Malachi151 · 11-06-2007, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shirley knott

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktsai

I took your advice and asked him to specify the difference between prediction and prophecy...this is what he wrote:

A prediction is picking one of the possibilities of a foreseen event.
A divine prophecy is an unforeseen event by humans. Only a divine entity could possibly know.

I'm guessing that the difference is only one of probability. One with a very low probability is called prophecy. Others are called predictions. :huh:

Actually, this is a distinction without a difference. In all cases a human is involved, so it is at best special pleading to insist that in one case there is "choice amongst alternatives" and in the other there is "an event unforeseen by humans".
I would point that out, as it gets closer to the nub of the issue -- all references to prophecy are cheats on already known human phenomena.
The claim seems always to boil down to "but it's a propehcey because god told me". But that is an unsupportable claim, and certainly not a claim that cannot be made to justify the existence of prophecy if prophecy is to justify a belief in the existence of a god.
(Also, this distniction does not rule out coincidence -- a science fiction author may fantasize something that later exists -- how is this not prophesy? No god invovled? ...)

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

Right, and by this measure Star Trek should surely be the new religion. After all, look at the triquarter vs. the modern cell phone....

Also, BTW, I predicted that the Iraq war would be a quagmire in 2002 if we were to enter into it. And now it is a quagmire. Does that mean I'm a prophet of God?

People seem to forget that people are perfectly capable of predicting future events on their own.

Malachi151 · 11-06-2007, 05:47 AM

The prophecies in the Old Testament are basically the exact same as me writing a story today about the War for Independence and "predicting" that George Washington will cross the Delaware River and defeat the British....

That is literally how the vast majority of OT "prophecies" were written.

Although this actually deals with OT prophecies that are supposedly "fulfilled" in the New Testament, I have always loved this justification for prophecy by Justin Martyr, one of the earliest apologists:

Quote:

CHAPTER XLII -- PROPHECY USING THE PAST TENSE.

But when the Spirit of prophecy speaks of things that are about to come to pass as if they had already taken place,--as may be observed even in the passages already cited by me,--that this circumstance may afford no excuse to readers [for misinterpreting them], we will make even this also quite plain. The things which He absolutely knows will take place, He predicts as if already they had taken place. And that the utterances must be thus received, you will perceive, if you give your attention to them. The words cited above, David uttered 1500 years before Christ became a man and was crucified; and no one of those who lived before Him, nor yet of His contemporaries, afforded joy to the Gentiles by being crucified. But our Jesus Christ, being crucified and dead, rose again, and having ascended to heaven, reigned; and by those things which were published in His name among all nations by the apostles, there is joy afforded to those who expect the immortality promised by Him.

- First Apology, 2nd century, Justin Martyr

-Jay- · 11-06-2007, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktsai

Quote:

Originally Posted by shirley knott

I think it would more productive to inquire of your friend what he thinks a 'prophecy' is. Specifically, how is a prophecy different from a prediction, a lucky guess, a coincidence, etc.
The 'argument from fulfilled prophecy' is one of the more ludicrous attempts to justify belief. The absurdity tends to become clear when one focuses on just what the claim to 'prophecy' actually amounts to.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

I took your advice and asked him to specify the difference between prediction and prophecy...this is what he wrote:

A prediction is picking one of the possibilities of a foreseen event.
A divine prophecy is an unforeseen event by humans. Only a divine entity could possibly know.

I'm guessing that the difference is only one of probability. One with a very low probability is called prophecy. Others are called predictions. :huh:

Rebelling against an occupying nation hardly seems to be an unforseen event. That could almost go from being a "possibility" to a "foregone conclusion", even if one allows for the moment that GMk predates the event...

How does your friend reckon the dates of authorship of the various Biblical books he's citing?

regards,

NinJay

-Jay- · 11-06-2007, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shirley knott

I would point that out, as it gets closer to the nub of the issue -- all references to prophecy are cheats on already known human phenomena.
The claim seems always to boil down to "but it's a propehcey because god told me". But that is an unsupportable claim, and certainly not a claim that cannot be made to justify the existence of prophecy if prophecy is to justify a belief in the existence of a god.

Excellent, excellent point, shirley. These arguments invariably turn on the thread of "the Bible says the Bible is true". It doesn't get any more circular than that.

regards,

NinJay

aa5874 · 11-06-2007, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktsai

A person I met is trying to inculcate me with his beliefs. He emailed me this as proof of the "absolute authority of God's word." Supposedly, these are prophecies in the bible that came true. I don't know much about the historicity of these. Can someone please verify if these prophecies have been fulfilled and are true/false:

Once this person claimed prophecies were fulfilled, then it is this person's obligation to provide you with specific corroborated details.

This person must be able to show or prove the following:

1. The date the prophecy was actually written or proclaimed.
2. That the so-called prophecy was not taken out of context, that is, the statement was never considered to be a prophecy until an event occurred later that made the previous statement appear prophetic.
3. The person who made the so-called prophetic statement actually lived.

If a person claimed an event really occurred, they must have proof that it actually did.

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11-06-2007, 01:33 AM	#13
neilgodfrey Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Darwin, Australia Posts: 874	What have archaeological digs uncovered re these walls? Has any part been found? If so, was any stone still resting upon another?

11-06-2007, 03:58 AM	#14
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Once you've elimintated the "prophecies" written after the event, and the ones where there is no independently-verifiable fulfilment, and the ones that are too hopelessly vague to be useful, and the out-of-context quotes (e.g. claiming that references to the return from the Babylonian exile actually refer to the re-emergence of Israel in the 20th century)... ...there is nothing left. So, turn the tables: why are there actually NO verifiably-successful prophecies in the Bible? There are several failed ones (Tyre, Babylon etc). So, is the Bible supernaturally inaccurate, with its 0% hit rate?

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