Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 07-03-2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyro

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

I think you may be committing an anachronism. Just because Christianity came to be hated by some in the 2nd century, does not imply it was hated by all in the first century. I see no conflict whatsoever in the idea that a 1st century Roman watchman was a Christian.

The inscription is dated to 205 CE.

Hence the reference to the emperor Severus in the first line of the Herennius inscription.

But spam's point is valid. We ought to remember that ancient states were not like modern ones, and were far more loosely organised. Laws were not enforced unless people wanted them to be, and could make them be. Paganism became illegal at the end of the 4th century, certainly for officials; but Roman officials who were pagans and wrote books in favour of paganism are recorded much later than this (e.g. Zosimus who lived in the early 6th century).

In modern Egypt, if something is made illegal, it is understood that this is merely in order to allow an official, whose job it is to prevent it, to take bribes. The idea that the law should be followed, as an abstract principle, barely exists. This is the evil legacy of Turkish rule, and the ancient world wasn't usually quite that bad. But the casual attitude to "law" is natural in all despotic states, where the rule of law does not obtain, and the attitude of the local "big man" is what matters. So it was in antiquity.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Tyro · 07-03-2009, 11:48 AM

But even if there was no anti-Christian edict of Severus, as Historia Augusta states, would a Christian really have been a watchman in Rome during the reign of Severus?

aa5874 · 07-03-2009, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyro

What does the () in Chrest(ianus) mean? Could this have been another name, like Chrestus?

Eusebius in Church History wrote that there was a bishop of Syracuse named Chrestus.

Church History 10.5.21.

Quote:

Constantine Augustus to Chrestus, bishop of Syracuse. When some began wickedly and perversely to disagree among themselves in regard to the holy worship and celestial power and Catholic doctrine, wishing to put an end to such disputes among them, I formerly gave command that certain bishops should be sent from Gaul......

See www.newadvent.org

arnoldo · 07-03-2009, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyro

What does the () in Chrest(ianus) mean? Could this have been another name, like Chrestus?

Eusebius in Church History wrote that there was a bishop of Syracuse named Chrestus.

Church History 10.5.21.

Quote:

Constantine Augustus to Chrestus, bishop of Syracuse. When some began wickedly and perversely to disagree among themselves in regard to the holy worship and celestial power and Catholic doctrine, wishing to put an end to such disputes among them, I formerly gave command that certain bishops should be sent from Gaul......

See www.newadvent.org

In reference to the term "christian" the Didache (possibly written before some of the gospels) uses the term in the following passage;

Quote:

But receive everyone who comes in the name of the Lord, and prove and know him afterward; for you shall have understanding right and left. If he who comes is a wayfarer, assist him as far as you are able; but he shall not remain with you more than two or three days, if need be. But if he wants to stay with you, and is an artisan, let him work and eat. But if he has no trade, according to your understanding, see to it that, as a Christian, he shall not live with you idle. But if he wills not to do, he is a Christ-monger. Watch that you keep away from such.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html

arnoldo · 07-03-2009, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

...

Justin also writes the bar kochba was persecuting the christians.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250104.htm

More precisely, Eusebius writes that Justin charges Bar Kochba with cruelty to Christians. Can you locate this in Justin's writings?

As per request;

Quote:

CHAPTER XXXI -- OF THE HEBREW PROPHETS.

There were, then, among the Jews certain men who were prophets of God, through whom the prophetic Spirit published beforehand things that were to come to pass, ere ever they happened. And their prophecies, as they were spoken and when they were uttered, the kings who happened to be reigning among the Jews at the several times carefully preserved in their possession, when they had been arranged in books by the prophets themselves in their own Hebrew language. And when Ptolemy king of Egypt formed a library, and endeavoured to collect the writings of all men, he heard also of these prophets, and sent to Herod, who was at that time king of the Jews, requesting that the books of the prophets be sent to him. And Herod the king did indeed send them, written, as they were, in the foresaid Hebrew language. And when their contents were found to be unintelligible to the Egyptians, he again sent and requested that men be commissioned to translate them into the Greek language. And when this was done, the books remained with the Egyptians, where they are until now. They are also in the possession of all Jews throughout the world; but they, though they read, do not understand what is said, but count us foes and enemies; and, like yourselves, they kill and punish us whenever they have the power, as you can well believe. For in the Jewish war which lately raged, Barchochebas, the leader of the revolt of the Jews, gave orders that Christians alone should be led to cruel punishments, unless they would deny Jesus Christ and utter blasphemy.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...stapology.html

Tyro · 07-03-2009, 08:28 PM

Chrestuses in the 4th century are irrelevant. It was a common name.
Regarding the term Chrestian for Christian, we have no evidence before Tacitus (~115), do we? Would Jucundus Chrestianus then just be a name? And also Herennius Chrestianus?

Huon · 07-04-2009, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

6.c(orniculari) tribuni Sexti Chrysogone
7. Primisi Chrysogone
8. aq(uarie) Sitti Chryseros

Chrysos = gold gonos = born Chrysogonos = born from gold

Chryseros is also derived from chrysos, gold

... and Roger Pearse did not bold their names.

I'm probably missing something. I didn't look for anyone with names like Chryso*; only for "Chrestianus", and so highlighted thos.

I was simply commenting the post of aa5874 #136.

I could add that "chrestiani" can be a nominative plural (the chrestians) or a genitive singular (... of Chrestianus).

mountainman · 07-04-2009, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Chrysos = gold gonos = born Chrysogonos = born from gold

Thanks Huon.

What about the term "Chrysargyron"?

mountainman · 07-04-2009, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyro

But even if there was no anti-Christian edict of Severus, as Historia Augusta states, would a Christian really have been a watchman in Rome during the reign of Severus?

Of course not. (IMO). Did the Roman Emperor Philip
the Arab become a Christian to celebrate the milenial
games of the Roman Empire? Eusebius tells us he did.
Utter baloney. Eusebius was a mercenary author.

It's a story, and as such, some people like to believe
that it is also a history, and a true story. Are you
familiar with the Prosenes Inscription?

Some people believe - on the basis of the inscription - that
this Prosenes was a "christian" despite the fact that the
same Prosenes was a manager of the gladatorial games
under the emperor Commodus c.217 CE.

The reality of the situation is that people are grasping
at sticks and straws with respect to any epigraphic
and/or archaeological evidence for anything "christian"
until very late in the peace. Critical examination of the
evidence must exclude these "chrestiani" inscriptions
as being related to "the Eusebian nation of early christians".

Quote:

Would Jucundus Chrestianus then just be a name?
And also Herennius Chrestianus?

That would be my bet.
And no bearing as evidence
whatsoever on "Christian Origins".

Tyro · 07-04-2009, 05:58 AM

This would indeed be an odd name in that case. But indeed that is more plausible than this being about Christians. It still puzzles me, though, that Herennius could have the cognomen Chrestianus at the same time as Tertullian said that people hating Christianity called Christians Chrestianus.

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07-03-2009, 11:48 AM	#142
Tyro Junior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: US Posts: 90	But even if there was no anti-Christian edict of Severus, as Historia Augusta states, would a Christian really have been a watchman in Rome during the reign of Severus?

07-03-2009, 08:28 PM	#146
Tyro Junior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: US Posts: 90	Chrestuses in the 4th century are irrelevant. It was a common name. Regarding the term Chrestian for Christian, we have no evidence before Tacitus (~115), do we? Would Jucundus Chrestianus then just be a name? And also Herennius Chrestianus?

07-04-2009, 05:58 AM	#150
Tyro Junior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: US Posts: 90	This would indeed be an odd name in that case. But indeed that is more plausible than this being about Christians. It still puzzles me, though, that Herennius could have the cognomen Chrestianus at the same time as Tertullian said that people hating Christianity called Christians Chrestianus.

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