Freethought & Rationalism Archive

judge · 04-10-2008, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Didn't Jimmy Carter see a UFO (or claim to)? Should that be left out of his biography?

Jimmy Carter is not a modern historian.

No, but modern historians write about US presidents, don't they?

judge · 04-10-2008, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alf

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

It doesn't sound like either, in the strict sense. It seems that these were merely the stories that people reported, that were known. If these stories were being passed on orally, as actual events, then it wouldn't really surprise us if they had elements like this.

If I told you about this guy Joe and just before he died he dreamt a special dream and I give you details of that dream and tells you that unfortunately he never managed to tell anyone about that dream before he died. Then you would know I was just making it up - why is that? Now, read the bible stories and you will likewise see that they are just making shit up for EXACTLY THE SAME REASON.

Alf

Why not use an actual story from the gospel of Luke so we can consider that, instead of inventing an impossible situation? Which story in the gospel of Luke can some one not have possibly known?

Lets look at the actual work.

Solo · 04-10-2008, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Didn't Jimmy Carter see a UFO (or claim to)? Should that be left out of his biography?

No it should not. But what Luke claims (e.g. in the incident on the road to Emmaus) happened in equivalent terms is not that Jimmy Carter saw a UFO but that he could not see it because the UFO crew was fiddling with his brain.

Luke 24:13-16:
Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[fn1] from Jerusalem.

They were talking with each other about everything that had happened.

As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them;

but they were kept from recognizing him (literally, "their eyes were held, so that they would not recognize him").

Jiri

spamandham · 04-10-2008, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Jimmy Carter is not a modern historian.

No, but modern historians write about US presidents, don't they?

Of course they do. What point are you trying to make?

spamandham · 04-10-2008, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Which story in the gospel of Luke can some one not have possibly known?

Lets look at the actual work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke 22

39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]

45When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46"Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."

So, we have Jesus all by himself praying while the disciples are asleep. Immediately after he returns while he's still admonishing them for falling asleep, he's arrested and the passion begins.

No-one but Jesus could have known how intensly he prayed, what he prayed, or that an angel comforted him, and there was no opportunity for him to tell anyone about it.

Only the author of a fictional account could know these details.

Alf · 04-10-2008, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Which story in the gospel of Luke can some one not have possibly known?

Lets look at the actual work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke 22

39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]

45When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46"Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."

So, we have Jesus all by himself praying while the disciples are asleep. Immediately after he returns while he's still admonishing them for falling asleep, he's arrested and the passion begins.

No-one but Jesus could have known how intensly he prayed, what he prayed, or that an angel comforted him, and there was no opportunity for him to tell anyone about it.

Only the author of a fictional account could know these details.

And even if he did get the opportunity later, would he really say to someone writing down for his biography: "And then I fell down to pray very intensely and I saw an angel come to me while those guys were asleep you know", would he really do that?. Perhaps christians boasts to each other like that but it is hardly an example to set from someone who is supposedly god incarnate and free of sin. Perhaps excessive boasting about praying habits is not a sin in christian circles?

Alf

andrewcriddle · 04-10-2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Which story in the gospel of Luke can some one not have possibly known?

Lets look at the actual work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke 22

39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]

45When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46"Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."

So, we have Jesus all by himself praying while the disciples are asleep. Immediately after he returns while he's still admonishing them for falling asleep, he's arrested and the passion begins.

No-one but Jesus could have known how intensly he prayed, what he prayed, or that an angel comforted him, and there was no opportunity for him to tell anyone about it.

Only the author of a fictional account could know these details.

FWIW Luke 22:43-44 are missing in several ancient manuscripts of Luke and are probably not part of the original text of Luke.

Andrew Criddle

judge · 04-10-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Which story in the gospel of Luke can some one not have possibly known?

Lets look at the actual work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke 22

39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]

45When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46"Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."

So, we have Jesus all by himself praying while the disciples are asleep. Immediately after he returns while he's still admonishing them for falling asleep, he's arrested and the passion begins.

No-one but Jesus could have known how intensly he prayed, what he prayed, or that an angel comforted him, and there was no opportunity for him to tell anyone about it.

Only the author of a fictional account could know these details.

Rubbish. Jesus himself could have told them. Don't you see this?

Now I am not saying that it happned or did not happen, but that this story was making the rounds and so Luke put it in his gospel.

This would not make it fiction but just a report of the stories

spamandham · 04-10-2008, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Rubbish. Jesus himself could have told them. Don't you see this?

No, I don't see it. He had no opportunity to do so according to the story.

judge · 04-10-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Rubbish. Jesus himself could have told them. Don't you see this?

No, I don't see it. He had no opportunity to do so according to the story.

Maybe on the road to Emmaus, or on any of the other occaisions they spoke. Obviously if the story includes him coming back, then it must include him being able to relate things at this point. This might be the kind of things friends would talk about.

So, the story was around , and Luke recorded it, possibly.

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