Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 07-04-2004, 09:22 PM

From Kirby's site

"The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it. This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished. "

Hope this helps, Judge.

Vorkosigan

judge · 07-04-2004, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

Judge - I guess I could turn the questions back around on you and ask: if you believe the gospels DID exist in the first century, then what evidence do you base this on?

Fair enough.

I do believe the entire NT to have been written prior to 70 a.d.. But i certainly don't and can't base this on any "scientific" methodology or point to any verifiable evidence whatsoever.

GakuseiDon · 07-04-2004, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Iasion >>>Also,
Aristides described the Gospels as having been preached only a "short time" in his day (140s-160s).

Do you have a reference or an online version of this in context?

thanks

Added in edit:

I found one

"The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it. This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished. But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried; and they say that after three days he rose and ascended to heaven. Thereupon these twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and kept showing his greatness with all modesty and uprightness. And hence also those of the present day who believe that preaching are called Christians, and they are become famous." (Aristides 2)

from here

I'm not sure this actually says what you suggest it might. ??

Iasion has made that claim before, and I've already pointed it out to him on Theology Web. I suspect he didn't see my reply, where I also quoted the same passage as judge. I'd also like Iasion to back up his statement.

07-04-2004, 10:45 PM

Greetings all, judge, Don,

Aristides wrote that the Gospel was "preached a short time".

I argue this means "has ONLY been preached a short time".
(It could hardly mean "preached a short time, then stopped")

The original is Syriac, I asked in the hugoye list whether the original supported my view. The answer I received was yes, the original means "only preached for a short time". Here is the original discussion -
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...ight=Aristides

Also,
the date of Aristides is apparently often mistaken due to a mis-reading of the formal Emperor's name.

So,
the text shows Aristides thought the Gospel (singular) had only been preached "a short time" in his day (138-161CE)

Iasion

GakuseiDon · 07-04-2004, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iasion

Greetings all, judge, Don,

Aristides wrote that the Gospel was "preached a short time".

I argue this means "has ONLY been preached a short time".
(It could hardly mean "preached a short time, then stopped")

The original is Syriac, I asked in the hugoye list whether the original supported my view. The answer I received was yes, the original means "only preached for a short time". Here is the original discussion -
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...ight=Aristides

Also,
the date of Aristides is apparently often mistaken due to a mis-reading of the formal Emperor's name.

So,
the text shows Aristides thought the Gospel (singular) had only been preached "a short time" in his day (138-161CE)

Iasion

Interesting thread, Iasion, thanks! It isn't as clear cut as I'd thought. But it doesn't look like any firm consensus was reached. It isn't unreasonable to conclude that "only preached for a short time among them" refers to Jesus's ministry to the Jews, although, as you say, this doesn't go with the sense of the gospel being something written, as Aristides says.

judge · 07-05-2004, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iasion

Greetings all, judge, Don,

)

Iasion

Thanks..I'l check it out. Peter Kirby always comes up with great posts.

Vorkosigan · 07-05-2004, 03:50 AM

Getting back to the topic....Do you think that Aristides reference to the 12 going out all over the world is a reference to Acts?

ichabod crane · 07-05-2004, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Getting back to the topic....Do you think that Aristides reference to the 12 going out all over the world is a reference to Acts?

I don't know, Vork, you'd have to look at the exact wording in Aristides and also ask whether there were other possible sources for the reference.

I have found that on both sides of the debate (conservative evangelical and liberal/sceptic) you need to treat claims about something being derived from something else very carefully and check the original. People's writings in this area are full of such assertions as fact when if you look at the text it turns out to be quite dubious. I've decided to start a thread on one that is particularly interesting in relation to the Jesus Myth ("Earliest reference to the gospel of Luke?").

judge · 07-05-2004, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

From Kirby's site

Hope this helps, Judge.

Vorkosigan

Thanks Vork....Is your moderatorship new? Or did I just miss it before?
If it's new congrats.

Vorkosigan · 07-05-2004, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Thanks Vork....Is your moderatorship new? Or did I just miss it before?
If it's new congrats.

I become a mod, then went on vacation. So it's not suprising that you missed it.

Michael

07-04-2004, 10:45 PM	#14
Iasion Guest Posts: n/a	Aristides Greetings all, judge, Don, Aristides wrote that the Gospel was "preached a short time". I argue this means "has ONLY been preached a short time". (It could hardly mean "preached a short time, then stopped") The original is Syriac, I asked in the hugoye list whether the original supported my view. The answer I received was yes, the original means "only preached for a short time". Here is the original discussion - http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...ight=Aristides Also, the date of Aristides is apparently often mistaken due to a mis-reading of the formal Emperor's name. So, the text shows Aristides thought the Gospel (singular) had only been preached "a short time" in his day (138-161CE) Iasion

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07-04-2004, 09:22 PM	#11
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	From Kirby's site "The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it. This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished. " Hope this helps, Judge. Vorkosigan

07-05-2004, 03:50 AM	#17
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Getting back to the topic....Do you think that Aristides reference to the 12 going out all over the world is a reference to Acts?

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