Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 06-06-2011, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

That would be from 170 to 180 CE.

Of course, the LXX was around for a few centuries before that.

If the Letter of Aristeas (located in Josephus) is treated as a forgery, then who is the earliest witness to the Greek LXX?

Why? Certainly Josephus is a witness, and the LXX would be available for first and second century Christians.

Josephus is also a witness for the historical Jesus who was the Christ, and it should not be difficult to ask and answer the question if the references in Josephus to the appearance of the Greek LXX are temporarily set aside, what are our next earliest references from antiquity for the physical presence of the Greek LXX?

The authority on the LXX is certainly to be found with Origen, who appears to have authored the Hexapla. What earlier mentions are there between Josephus (or earlier than Josephus) and Origen by which it is infered that the Greek LXX was in circulation?

Are there any early papyri fragments? Are there any non christian references? In which century does the earliest evidence of the Greek LXX appear?

Best wishes

Pete

discordant · 06-06-2011, 10:02 PM

From The Septuagint, pages 41 & 42:

Quote:

Biblical quotations or allusions supposing knowledge of the LXX occur in Hellenistic Jewish writers from the end of the third century BCE onwards (Swete 1914: 369-70 gives a list). If the attributions are reliable, and if the biblical allusions are really based on the LXX, then this evidence, though meagre, is precious. But certainty is difficult to establish

Quote:

The Greek of the Pentateuch reflects an identifiable stage in the development of Koine (the 'common' language of the Hellenistic period) consonant with the early-third century. This is probably the strongest argument, though it is doubtful how precise, as yet, the results can be

I think I've tracked down the source mentioned in the first claim (link):

Quote:

A HAPPY accident has preserved fragments of the lost literature produced by the Hellenised Jews of Alexandria between the inception of the Alexandrian Version and the Christian era. The Greek historiographer, Alexander Cornelius - better known as Polyhistor . . ., from his encyclopaedic learning - wrote a treatise On the Jews which contained extracts from Jewish and Samaritan Hellenistic writings. Of these a few were copied from Polyhistor's book by Clement of Alexandria and Eusebius of Caesarea, in whose pages they may still be read. They consist of fragments of the historians Demetrius, Kupolemus, Artapanus, and Aristeas, the poets Philo, Theodotus, and Ezekiel, the philosopher Aristobulus, and Cleodemus or Malchas. There is reason to believe that Demetrius flourished c. B.C. 200; for the other writers the date of Polyhistor (c. B.C. 50) supplies a terminus ad quem, if we may assume that he wrote the work attributed to him by Clement and Eusebius.

The following references will enable the student to find the fragments:

(1) Demetrius: Clem. Al. strom, i. 141. Eus. pr. ev. ix. I9(?), 21, 29. (2) Eupolemus: Clem. Al. strom. i, 141. Eus. pr. ev. ix. 17, 26 (= Clem. Al. strom. i. 153), 30--34, 39. (3) Artapanus: Eus. pr. ev. ix. 18, 23, 27. (4) Aristeas: Eus. pr. ev. ix. 25. (5) Philo the poet: Eus. pr. ev. ix. 20, 24, 37 (cf. Clem. Al. strom, i. 154). (6) Theodotus: Eus. pr. ev. ix. 22. (7) Ezekiel the poet: Eus. pr. ev. ix. 28 (= Clem. Al. strom, i. 155), 29. (8) Aristobulus: Eus. pr. ev. viii. 10; ix. 6 (= Clem. Al. strom. i, 22); xiii. 12. (9) Cleodemus or Malchas: Eus. pr. ev. ix. 20.

Several of these fragments bear traces of a knowledge and use of the Greek Bible, and this evidence is not the less convincing because, with one exception, the purpose of the writers has kept them from actual quotation. They wished to represent their national history in a form more acceptable to their pagan neighbours; but while avoiding the uncouth phraseology of the Greek Bible they frequently betray its influence.

Edit: Can't figure out the Amazon link. Scrapped it.

Toto · 06-06-2011, 10:31 PM

The Septuagint (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Just one digit off. You're doing fine.

mountainman · 06-07-2011, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by discordant

(link):

Quote:

A HAPPY accident has preserved fragments of the lost literature produced by the Hellenised Jews of Alexandria between the inception of the Alexandrian Version and the Christian era. The Greek historiographer, Alexander Cornelius - better known as Polyhistor . . ., from his encyclopaedic learning - wrote a treatise On the Jews which contained extracts from Jewish and Samaritan Hellenistic writings. Of these a few were copied from Polyhistor's book by Clement of Alexandria and Eusebius of Caesarea, in whose pages they may still be read. They consist of fragments of the historians Demetrius, Kupolemus, Artapanus, and Aristeas, the poets Philo, Theodotus, and Ezekiel, the philosopher Aristobulus, and Cleodemus or Malchas. There is reason to believe that Demetrius flourished c. B.C. 200; for the other writers the date of Polyhistor (c. B.C. 50) supplies a terminus ad quem, if we may assume that he wrote the work attributed to him by Clement and Eusebius.

The following references will enable the student to find the fragments:

(1) Demetrius: Clem. Al. strom, i. 141. Eus. pr. ev. ix. I9(?), 21, 29. (2) Eupolemus: Clem. Al. strom. i, 141. Eus. pr. ev. ix. 17, 26 (= Clem. Al. strom. i. 153), 30--34, 39. (3) Artapanus: Eus. pr. ev. ix. 18, 23, 27. (4) Aristeas: Eus. pr. ev. ix. 25. (5) Philo the poet: Eus. pr. ev. ix. 20, 24, 37 (cf. Clem. Al. strom, i. 154). (6) Theodotus: Eus. pr. ev. ix. 22. (7) Ezekiel the poet: Eus. pr. ev. ix. 28 (= Clem. Al. strom, i. 155), 29. (8) Aristobulus: Eus. pr. ev. viii. 10; ix. 6 (= Clem. Al. strom. i, 22); xiii. 12. (9) Cleodemus or Malchas: Eus. pr. ev. ix. 20.

Several of these fragments bear traces of a knowledge and use of the Greek Bible, and this evidence is not the less convincing because, with one exception, the purpose of the writers has kept them from actual quotation. They wished to represent their national history in a form more acceptable to their pagan neighbours; but while avoiding the uncouth phraseology of the Greek Bible they frequently betray its influence.

Thanks discordant,

I have bolded and underline the relevant phrase. Apparently nobody has cited from the Greek LXX, but for one exception. What is this exception, does someone know?

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_Aristeas

Best wishes,

Pete

discordant · 06-07-2011, 02:39 AM

(Eupolemus) εὐλογητὸς ὁ θεός ὃς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν

(LXX, 2 Chronicles 2:12) καὶ εἶπεν Χιραμ εὐλογητὸς κύριος ὁ θεὸς Ισραηλ ὃς ἐποίησεν τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν ὃς ἔδωκεν τῷ Δαυιδ τῷ βασιλεῖ υἱὸν σοφὸν καὶ ἐπιστάμενον σύνεσιν καὶ ἐπιστήμην ὃς οἰκοδομήσει οἶκον τῷ κυρίῳ καὶ οἶκον τῇ βασιλείᾳ αὐτοῦ

This must be one of the allusions, and not a quote.

I won't check any more just now. It involves some pretty intense squinting.

discordant · 06-07-2011, 04:09 AM

Another one.

(Aristobulus) ἐν χειρὶ κραταιᾷ ἐξήγαγεν ὁ θεός σε ἐξ Αἰγύπτου

(LXX, Exodus 13:9) καὶ ἔσται σοι σημεῖον ἐπὶ τῆς χειρός σου καὶ μνημόσυνον πρὸ ὀφθαλμῶν σου ὅπως ἂν γένηται ὁ νόμος κυρίου ἐν τῷ στόματί σου ἐν γὰρ χειρὶ κραταιᾷ ἐξήγαγέν σε κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἐξ Αἰγύπτου

By the way: text of Eupolemus, text of Aristobulus.

andrewcriddle · 06-07-2011, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

.................................................. ...............

The authority on the LXX is certainly to be found with Origen, who appears to have authored the Hexapla. What earlier mentions are there between Josephus (or earlier than Josephus) and Origen by which it is infered that the Greek LXX was in circulation?

Are there any early papyri fragments? Are there any non christian references? In which century does the earliest evidence of the Greek LXX appear?

Best wishes

Pete

The oldest papyrus fragment of the LXX is apparently Papyrus_Rylands_458 it is paleographically dated to before 100 BCE.

Andrew Criddle

Doug Shaver · 06-07-2011, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Josephus is also a witness for the historical Jesus who was the Christ

Under your theory of Christian origins, how is that possible?

discordant · 06-07-2011, 07:55 AM

Now this one is interesting. The parallel text in Job is part of a lengthy postscript that only exists in the LXX, and it looks like a strong enough match to not be just coincidence.

(Aristeas) κατοικειν δε τουτον εν τη Αυσιτιδι χωρα επι τοις οροις της Ιδουμαιας και Αραβιας

(LXX, Job 42:17b) οὗτος ἑρμηνεύεται ἐκ τῆς Συριακῆς βίβλου ἐν μὲν γῇ κατοικῶν τῇ Αυσίτιδι ἐπὶ τοῖς ὁρίοις τῆς Ιδουμαίας καὶ Ἀραβίας προϋπῆρχεν δὲ αὐτῷ ὄνομα Ιωβαβ

discordant · 06-07-2011, 08:17 AM

I knew it! Someone's already done this (link).

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06-06-2011, 10:31 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The Septuagint (or via: amazon.co.uk) Just one digit off. You're doing fine.

06-07-2011, 02:39 AM	#5
discordant Junior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Perth Posts: 57	(Eupolemus) εὐλογητὸς ὁ θεός ὃς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν (LXX, 2 Chronicles 2:12) καὶ εἶπεν Χιραμ εὐλογητὸς κύριος ὁ θεὸς Ισραηλ ὃς ἐποίησεν τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν ὃς ἔδωκεν τῷ Δαυιδ τῷ βασιλεῖ υἱὸν σοφὸν καὶ ἐπιστάμενον σύνεσιν καὶ ἐπιστήμην ὃς οἰκοδομήσει οἶκον τῷ κυρίῳ καὶ οἶκον τῇ βασιλείᾳ αὐτοῦ This must be one of the allusions, and not a quote. I won't check any more just now. It involves some pretty intense squinting.

06-07-2011, 04:09 AM	#6
discordant Junior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Perth Posts: 57	Another one. (Aristobulus) ἐν χειρὶ κραταιᾷ ἐξήγαγεν ὁ θεός σε ἐξ Αἰγύπτου (LXX, Exodus 13:9) καὶ ἔσται σοι σημεῖον ἐπὶ τῆς χειρός σου καὶ μνημόσυνον πρὸ ὀφθαλμῶν σου ὅπως ἂν γένηται ὁ νόμος κυρίου ἐν τῷ στόματί σου ἐν γὰρ χειρὶ κραταιᾷ ἐξήγαγέν σε κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἐξ Αἰγύπτου By the way: text of Eupolemus, text of Aristobulus.

06-07-2011, 07:55 AM	#9
discordant Junior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Perth Posts: 57	Now this one is interesting. The parallel text in Job is part of a lengthy postscript that only exists in the LXX, and it looks like a strong enough match to not be just coincidence. (Aristeas) κατοικειν δε τουτον εν τη Αυσιτιδι χωρα επι τοις οροις της Ιδουμαιας και Αραβιας (LXX, Job 42:17b) οὗτος ἑρμηνεύεται ἐκ τῆς Συριακῆς βίβλου ἐν μὲν γῇ κατοικῶν τῇ Αυσίτιδι ἐπὶ τοῖς ὁρίοις τῆς Ιδουμαίας καὶ Ἀραβίας προϋπῆρχεν δὲ αὐτῷ ὄνομα Ιωβαβ

06-07-2011, 08:17 AM	#10
discordant Junior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Perth Posts: 57	I knew it! Someone's already done this (link).

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