Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 05-20-2004, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Creedance Front

I, as an agnostic, consider many Christians to be very sane and reasonable people. However, it seems "fundamentalists" are always the ones that pop up and make noise. I think it's fair to lump all fundamentalists into one category, as most of their denominations only differ in ritual. They all believe in the "pre-Tribulation rapture", which dictates that all believing Christians will be miraculously "taken" from their daily activities and end up in heaven, leaving their possessions behind, ala the "Left Behind" series. As far as I know through traditional teachings though, being raised somewhere between mainline Lutheran and Catholic, God would destroy the world in Armageddon, like most apocalypse tales in religion, including Christians, churches, everything, and Christian souls would be taken to heaven, the sinners' souls cast into hell. In fact, the apocalypse was hardly discussed in my Catholic school, not to mention it was thought not to be coming soon. We assumed we were going to die and be judged when our souls left our bodies on if we had good hearts or not.

This strongly differs from a Baptist kid I knew, whose congregation spent New Year's Eve 2000 in their church praying and anticipating the Rapture. How did the Rapture become so attached to Calvinist-inspired teachings? I think the rapture teachings were created because eternal life after death wasn't good enough for some Christians, they had to have eternal life in their lifetime. The only conundrum I have is, who is this handful of men I read about who, in the mid-1800's, supposedly compiled the rapture from a mishmash of New Testament texts? Do we have solid evidence, and if so, why aren't we using it to refute these apocalyptic cults?

I think fundamentalist Christians have actually gone to the point of trying to bring about the apocalypse through action in this world, like political lobbying groups, "missionary action groups", massive money accumulation, and decisive votes. That's a very scary thing to me.

Maybe i'm misunderstanding you, but are you asking if the Rapture is actually a Biblical concept, or randomly thought up by people a couple centuries ago?

Amaleq13 · 05-21-2004, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Maybe this sort of thing gets kicked around anytime a self-professed Christian enters the White House?

Clinton was a "self-professed Christian" but I don't recall it getting "kicked around" during his administration. Then again, he didn't claim to be obtaining advice from Jesus about invading another country.

George the Lessor claims to be "born again". That requires that he believe in the return of Christ and the associated Last Days, doesn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Hi Amaleq13!, hope all is well.
I would love to get some more info re this. Is there anything avaliable that you know of? (Added in edit).... I did find this article from the past week.

All is well but all is really freaking busy with my upcoming move to the Last Frontier.

Thanks for the link. I had heard about that article but I had not read it. My opinion is largely based on a speech or an answer to the press GW gave a long time ago where he made a comment implying he shared the standard Christian belief in the return of Jesus and the associated End Times. This was before I learned he claimed to have been born again so it kind of surprised me. Nothing I've heard him say subsequently, that is related to his religious beliefs, suggests I am mistaken in my understanding of his views. OTOH, if anyone can provide a quote from him where he denies believing that Jesus will return to bring about The End, I would be quite relieved.

ceinwyn · 05-21-2004, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Maybe i'm misunderstanding you, but are you asking if the Rapture is actually a Biblical concept, or randomly thought up by people a couple centuries ago?

What does it matter? People in this day actually believe it.

I'll wait till I see it.

judge · 05-21-2004, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

All is well but all is really freaking busy with my upcoming move to the Last Frontier.

Thanks for the link. I had heard about that article but I had not read it. My opinion is largely based on a speech or an answer to the press GW gave a long time ago where he made a comment implying he shared the standard Christian belief in the return of Jesus and the associated End Times. This was before I learned he claimed to have been born again so it kind of surprised me. Nothing I've heard him say subsequently, that is related to his religious beliefs, suggests I am mistaken in my understanding of his views. OTOH, if anyone can provide a quote from him where he denies believing that Jesus will return to bring about The End, I would be quite relieved.

I don't think we will ever hear him deny it (it would cost too many votes)

I think we may find he says as little as possible about anything (a closed mouth gathers no foot... as they say)

I have tried in the past to learn exactly what GWB does believe but it has been very difficult to get much detail, but there is always this strong suggestion that the government is "influened by" or "closely in touch with" end time "whackos".

When I was younger I was fooled into believing all the rubbish about the ënd times"". Sadly while you are caught in that belief system it can be extremely hard to see that it is not true. Such a belief soon begins to influence most of what you do. Which means you weither begin to live like a loony or live with the cognitive dissonance.

Not being president, believing this kind of thing probably doesn't pose huge problems for the rest of the world though. But if you are president and you are constantly being pressured by people who really believe thse things then who knows what effect it will have.

Anti-Creedance Front · 05-21-2004, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Maybe i'm misunderstanding you, but are you asking if the Rapture is actually a Biblical concept, or randomly thought up by people a couple centuries ago?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm inferring.

Magus55 · 05-21-2004, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Creedance Front

Yes, that is exactly what I'm inferring.

Yes the Rapture is a Biblical concept.

Anti-Creedance Front · 05-21-2004, 09:08 PM

It's not a yes-no question for me, Magus... Unless there is actual mention in the Bible of believing Christians being "taken" from their daily lives BEFORE the battle of armageddon...

I just learned today before reading this thread that that man was John Darby, and I did come onto it through reading about the Left Behind series. Suprisingly, I happened on the fact that the Left Behind authors "grace" the cover of Newsweek (nice polyester pants LaHaye!) today. I was thinking that Darby's "premillenialism" influences most of apocalyptic Christianity today. Just couldn't think of the name.

Seriously though, the sheer amount of political sway and money these guys have is amazing. And they're actually trying to fulfill Armageddon. They have crossed the point between psychotics and an active threat. That article about the White House and the "Apostolic Congress" meetings freaked me out even more...

SEF · 05-22-2004, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Creedance Front

And they're actually trying to fulfill Armageddon.

Yes, here's just one of the things they've been up to in order to deliberately bring about the end of the world (along with funding/supporting terrorists on the "right" side and starting wars of course):
http://www.nationalreview.com/dreher/dreher041102.asp

Under any other circumstances these people would be medicated or locked up as dangerous psychotics and psychopaths. But they have the pseudo-respectability of claiming religion which traditionally has protective precedent against being seen for what they really are (unless like Joan of Arc you are up against a bigger, nastier, rival bunch of people claiming religion).

It might be entertaining to try some of the psych tests on rapture believers etc to see if, ignoring the convenient religion excuse, they would actually fail. It has already been suggested that many of the people with visions actually had epileptic seizures. Unfortunately that does have to be based on theirs and others accounts when they are not alive any more, unlike the methods of forensic archaeology which can belatedly identify other diseases which leave traces in the bones of ancient victims. Some of the witch-hunting mania seems to have been based on a toxic fungal infection (the reported symptoms and behaviour and recorded weather/harvest conditions apparently fit the model extremely well). So I wonder if John Nelson Darby showed any signs of epilepsy.

Amaleq13 · 05-22-2004, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

...there is always this strong suggestion that the government is "influened by" or "closely in touch with" end time "whackos".

I was pleased to see that Jack Van Impe was apparently lying when he claimed to have been consulted by White House staff members.

At least I hope he is the one putting out false information.

Magus55 · 05-22-2004, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Creedance Front

It's not a yes-no question for me, Magus... Unless there is actual mention in the Bible of believing Christians being "taken" from their daily lives BEFORE the battle of armageddon...

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rapture comes from the latin for caught up.

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05-21-2004, 09:08 PM	#17
Anti-Creedance Front Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 452	It's not a yes-no question for me, Magus... Unless there is actual mention in the Bible of believing Christians being "taken" from their daily lives BEFORE the battle of armageddon... I just learned today before reading this thread that that man was John Darby, and I did come onto it through reading about the Left Behind series. Suprisingly, I happened on the fact that the Left Behind authors "grace" the cover of Newsweek (nice polyester pants LaHaye!) today. I was thinking that Darby's "premillenialism" influences most of apocalyptic Christianity today. Just couldn't think of the name. Seriously though, the sheer amount of political sway and money these guys have is amazing. And they're actually trying to fulfill Armageddon. They have crossed the point between psychotics and an active threat. That article about the White House and the "Apostolic Congress" meetings freaked me out even more...

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