Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Proxima Centauri · 08-08-2003, 10:41 AM

At the time of good, (intolerant) Queen Elizabeth the First of England the poet Christopher Marlow suggested the above. He was severely punished for this blasphemous heresy.
Is there any evidence whether or not this actually happened? Did Jesus and John the Baptist do (...er...) with each other?

penumbra · 08-08-2003, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Did Jesus and John the Baptist do (...er...) with each other?

Hmmm...I don't know, but I'm willing to bet Jebus and the "beloved disciple" did!!

Toto · 08-08-2003, 11:43 AM

What's your source for this?

THE KILLING OF MARLOWE: FACT OR FAKE?

Quote:

At the end of May 1593, Christopher Marlowe, England's top poet-dramatist of the day, stood accused of atheism, blasphemy, heresy, illicit coining, treachery and treason. The punishment for such alleged crimes included being boiled alive, burning at the stake, or being hanged, drawn (i.e. disemboweled) and quartered. He was, in other words, in deep trouble.

Having been arrested under suspicion of just the heresy, he had been granted bail on 20th May, but was required to report daily to their Lordships of the Privy Council, (1) while this further 'evidence' was gathered. The informer's extremely biased (2) report now being complete, Marlowe faced immediate detention and torture, to extract a confession, whether guilty or not, unless some means of escape could be found. Had he simply fled, or gone into hiding, he would for the rest of his life have been pursued as a fugitive. A much better solution would certainly have been to fake his own death and to assume a new identity. As a secret agent of several years standing, Marlowe would have had both the experience and, as we shall see, the contacts to bring this about.

And indeed, just before the informer's report reached the Privy Council, word arrived that Marlowe was dead and buried, having been knifed in the face (and thus rendered less recognizable?) during a fracas involving three gentlemen at a house in Deptford. Plague was raging through London that summer, and the coroner's inquest and subsequent burial of the body, in an unmarked grave, had been completed within only 48 hours of the 'killing'. (3)

THE OPPORTUNITY

The cause of Marlowe's arrest in the first place was that two fragments of a paper containing "vile hereticall conceipts", (4) and allegedly having come from him, had been found in the home of his fellow playwright, Thomas Kyd. Suspected of having been involved in the display of an inflammatory anti-immigrant poster, Kyd had been arrested, taken to the Bridewell, and tortured. His rooms had been searched and the document found, which "he affirmeth that he had from Marlowe".

These vile heretical concepts are not detailed, but footnote 4 says:

Quote:

4 BL Harley MS.6848 ff.188-9. These were in fact quite innocuous and could have been copied from a book which was in the library of John Gresshop, Marlowe's headmaster at Canterbury. See Dr. William Urry's Christopher Marlowe and Canterbury (1988) p.77.

Toto · 08-08-2003, 12:19 PM

OK, praise google.

Blasphemy {scroll down}

Quote:

Blasphemy: Impious Speech in the West from the 17th to the 19th Century by Alain Cabantous, translated by Eric Rauth $29.50

. . . .

Atheists were of course blasphemers by definition, and we know from the charges against Christopher Marlowe that, like Theophile, they sometimes larded their tavern conversation with rather juvenile insults to religion - the Virgin was a whore, Christ was a bastard and St John was his bedfellow, and so on. It seems that one somehow needed to publicise the outrageousness of one's heretical opinions by talking in this manner.

In short, no evidence except some Elizabethan trash talk.

Infidelettante · 08-08-2003, 09:55 PM

I rise in defense of Sodom it being in no condition to rise on it�s own. These past millennia have not been kind to the city on the plain. I might say cruel but will settle for unfair. Yes, unfair for she is burdened with an intimate association with Sodomy and those who gravitate to the practice. I offer no sanction of them for it is their nature as it is the nature of the rose to bloom and of the river to flow.

But that nature has by vile and devious intent been brought to a semblance of evil and degradation. Oh shame, that so vital and pure a desire should now, twisted by bigotry and ignorance besmirch both Sodom and Sodomite alike. They are conspired against all these centuries by liars and lovers of scandal who when there is no grist for the mill throw in the miller.

Now first must the city be condemned. What is open and tolerant becomes wanton and graven. What is diverse and cosmopolitan becomes licentious and worldly. It is an open and welcoming city full of commerce and trade. It is made the demons plaything and the devils willing toy. Call out her sins. Bemoan her wickedness. Pray her destruction.

And now the players play.

Two by night have come. Who they be we know not for they have not as is our custom greeted the elders of the city at the gate of it. They abide yet unknown to us in the home of Lot who, though respected is a visitor here. Let those of some standing ask Lot to bring out the strangers that we might know them and ask of their well being and if they are treated with kindness and if they have eaten and if they are found wanting of anything pray tell them we will provide for them as is our custom.

Elders, those of standing return and bring ill news for Lot will not open his home to them but sends them away with curses and threats. They have left the offerings at the door of Lot but none comes to take them in. Lot is well liked in our city and his dealings are fair with those within. His ways are strange to us but there are many ways and all have shown him deference and have by word and deed made him and his welcome.

He has not a little enlarged his purse at our expense and yet our customs are as nothing to him. Others begin to ask what he has given to gain his ease. There is no small talk that the Elders have deep purses that yawn and gape. He is a basket of trouble and a straw of peace. Let him and his on the next sunrise be put out and pray let them return from where they came. We have no need of this constant annoyance. See it to an end and be done with it.

Lot, his daughters, his wife, his servants and all that were his are set out of the East Gate and admonished against returning to Sodom.

Wife, said Lot, you are a cold comfort to a chilled heart. I am set out of the city with but you and these few servants and your children who have learned from you the art of sucking the life out of things. Must you all complain at once. Take yours now and yours later and yours then. Surly you can manage to nag me through eternity if you plan a little.

I am to tell Abram what? That me and mine are cast out like moldy bread. No, like over ripe melons? Spoiled cabbage? Wormy meat? Hush, hush let me think, please only give me this, a reason, a tail, a story. They grew jealous of me and mine? No, he knows me and mine too well. They resented my wisdom and knowledge? No, he knows me too well. They are evil to the bone and I feared for the lives of my dear wife and children? Possibilities. Possibilities.

We had friends over, they arrived late, the men of Sodom banged the door and demanded to bang the visitors, we resisted, I offered them the girls, they left. I think the girls were too much for them. Next day we gathered up everything we owned and set out for home, it is good to see you again Abram, yes, yes it was most difficult for the girls. They don�t deal with rejection at all well you know. No, no don�t seek revenge on my account as a matter of fact I�m sure as we were just topping the hill I saw fire and brimstone, yes, I�m sure it was fire and I think brimstone raining down just as we had prayed would happen, oh yes he is a powerful God, indeed he is, is there a place for the kids and me? Yes very sad we lost the dear lady off a very high cliff, no, no hope, devastated yes, yes and quite tired the long walk you see I think we can all fit just over here, out of the way, you�ll never notice us. Too bad about the Sodomites, yes I see what you mean, recompense and all. Justice and what not. Oh do tell me about your God again you had to leave Ur you said? Really? Who�d have thought. No, no, go on, go on.

JT

Proxima Centauri · 08-16-2003, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
What's your source for this?

THE KILLING OF MARLOWE: FACT OR FAKE?

These vile heretical concepts are not detailed, but footnote 4 says:

Thanks Toto. Your link taught me quite a bit of history.

boneyard bill · 08-17-2003, 03:02 AM

I believe Morton Smith suggested that homosexuality was a part of the ritual of Jesus' sect. He based this on the "Secret Gospel of Mark" which is he claimed to have discovered in the Mar Saba monastery in Israel. Both the thesis and the gospel are controversial, but you can read more about it on this board in the threads dealing with Morton Smith and the Secret Gospel of Mark.

zog · 08-17-2003, 09:06 AM

From what i understand the allegations were probably just the imagination of a man thinking of what an athiest would say to satisfy his interrogator.

The allegation in itself is just mud slinging i believe

08-17-2003, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by B.Shack
At the time of good, (intolerant) Queen Elizabeth the First of England the poet Christopher Marlow suggested the above. He was severely punished for this blasphemous heresy.
Is there any evidence whether or not this actually happened? Did Jesus and John the Baptist do (...er...) with each other?

Hello Barbara, before you take that as fact the physical existence of Jesus and John as being two different people must be proven. According to my interpretation of the bible Jesus and John were just two different perspectives given by the same person. John
revealed insights from the netherworld of the subconscious mind (because that is where he was from) and Jesus told us how the conscious mind would see things after rebirth.

If the above is true Jesus and John did have intercourse with each other but I don't think that it was anal.

Doctor X · 08-17-2003, 03:36 PM

Sorry, Amos, but that is one of the funniest things I have read in a while.

Quote:

If the above is true Jesus and John did have intercourse with each other but I don't think that it was anal.

--J.D.

08-08-2003, 10:41 AM	#1
Proxima Centauri Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: England, the EU. Posts: 2,403	Did Jesus and John the Baptist Indulge in the Sins of Soddom and Gamorah? At the time of good, (intolerant) Queen Elizabeth the First of England the poet Christopher Marlow suggested the above. He was severely punished for this blasphemous heresy. Is there any evidence whether or not this actually happened? Did Jesus and John the Baptist do (...er...) with each other?

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08-08-2003, 09:55 PM	#5
Infidelettante Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Deep South Posts: 889	I rise in defense of Sodom it being in no condition to rise on it�s own. These past millennia have not been kind to the city on the plain. I might say cruel but will settle for unfair. Yes, unfair for she is burdened with an intimate association with Sodomy and those who gravitate to the practice. I offer no sanction of them for it is their nature as it is the nature of the rose to bloom and of the river to flow. But that nature has by vile and devious intent been brought to a semblance of evil and degradation. Oh shame, that so vital and pure a desire should now, twisted by bigotry and ignorance besmirch both Sodom and Sodomite alike. They are conspired against all these centuries by liars and lovers of scandal who when there is no grist for the mill throw in the miller. Now first must the city be condemned. What is open and tolerant becomes wanton and graven. What is diverse and cosmopolitan becomes licentious and worldly. It is an open and welcoming city full of commerce and trade. It is made the demons plaything and the devils willing toy. Call out her sins. Bemoan her wickedness. Pray her destruction. And now the players play. Two by night have come. Who they be we know not for they have not as is our custom greeted the elders of the city at the gate of it. They abide yet unknown to us in the home of Lot who, though respected is a visitor here. Let those of some standing ask Lot to bring out the strangers that we might know them and ask of their well being and if they are treated with kindness and if they have eaten and if they are found wanting of anything pray tell them we will provide for them as is our custom. Elders, those of standing return and bring ill news for Lot will not open his home to them but sends them away with curses and threats. They have left the offerings at the door of Lot but none comes to take them in. Lot is well liked in our city and his dealings are fair with those within. His ways are strange to us but there are many ways and all have shown him deference and have by word and deed made him and his welcome. He has not a little enlarged his purse at our expense and yet our customs are as nothing to him. Others begin to ask what he has given to gain his ease. There is no small talk that the Elders have deep purses that yawn and gape. He is a basket of trouble and a straw of peace. Let him and his on the next sunrise be put out and pray let them return from where they came. We have no need of this constant annoyance. See it to an end and be done with it. Lot, his daughters, his wife, his servants and all that were his are set out of the East Gate and admonished against returning to Sodom. Wife, said Lot, you are a cold comfort to a chilled heart. I am set out of the city with but you and these few servants and your children who have learned from you the art of sucking the life out of things. Must you all complain at once. Take yours now and yours later and yours then. Surly you can manage to nag me through eternity if you plan a little. I am to tell Abram what? That me and mine are cast out like moldy bread. No, like over ripe melons? Spoiled cabbage? Wormy meat? Hush, hush let me think, please only give me this, a reason, a tail, a story. They grew jealous of me and mine? No, he knows me and mine too well. They resented my wisdom and knowledge? No, he knows me too well. They are evil to the bone and I feared for the lives of my dear wife and children? Possibilities. Possibilities. We had friends over, they arrived late, the men of Sodom banged the door and demanded to bang the visitors, we resisted, I offered them the girls, they left. I think the girls were too much for them. Next day we gathered up everything we owned and set out for home, it is good to see you again Abram, yes, yes it was most difficult for the girls. They don�t deal with rejection at all well you know. No, no don�t seek revenge on my account as a matter of fact I�m sure as we were just topping the hill I saw fire and brimstone, yes, I�m sure it was fire and I think brimstone raining down just as we had prayed would happen, oh yes he is a powerful God, indeed he is, is there a place for the kids and me? Yes very sad we lost the dear lady off a very high cliff, no, no hope, devastated yes, yes and quite tired the long walk you see I think we can all fit just over here, out of the way, you�ll never notice us. Too bad about the Sodomites, yes I see what you mean, recompense and all. Justice and what not. Oh do tell me about your God again you had to leave Ur you said? Really? Who�d have thought. No, no, go on, go on. JT

08-17-2003, 03:02 AM	#7
boneyard bill Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 15,796	I believe Morton Smith suggested that homosexuality was a part of the ritual of Jesus' sect. He based this on the "Secret Gospel of Mark" which is he claimed to have discovered in the Mar Saba monastery in Israel. Both the thesis and the gospel are controversial, but you can read more about it on this board in the threads dealing with Morton Smith and the Secret Gospel of Mark.

08-17-2003, 09:06 AM	#8
zog Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: UK Posts: 24	From what i understand the allegations were probably just the imagination of a man thinking of what an athiest would say to satisfy his interrogator. The allegation in itself is just mud slinging i believe

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