Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 01-21-2012, 09:10 PM

Here is John Onians discussion of the sign of the cross in the fourth century:

Quote:

Charged with the traditional authority at once of a legal seal, and of a military standard, both objects called signa by the Romans, the sign of the cross had a greater power than any image. Indeed it is important that the cross is never referred to as an image or representation of the cross, but always as a sign (signum, semeion). There is no doubt that this practice was influenced by Moses' prohibition of 'images', but the cross as sign could never have achieved the status it did by the fourth century if all sections of the population of the Roman Empire were not by then mentally ready to acknowledge its power. Part of their readiness derived from its similarity to earlier seals and standards, the two principal 'signs' in the civil and military worlds. Other factors were its resemblance to signs, symbols and schemata that were already current among different

Unfortunately my Google preview cuts off there.

stephan huller · 01-21-2012, 09:25 PM

I think I came up with something. Wherever the Greek semeion is used in the LXX it is translating the original Hebrew אוֹת. The Hebrew word sandwiches the sixth letter (= 6) between the first and last letter, the Hebrew equivalent of the alpha and omega. I always noticed that the chresimon is often flanked by the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet:

Alpha and omega (= beginning and end) is usually translated by the Hebrew word emet (= beginning, middle and end). I wonder if the chrismon is imitating the Hebrew word 'sign.' While chi is not the sixth letter it has a value of 600 which for kabbalists is the same thing.

stephan huller · 01-21-2012, 09:42 PM

Even that's too complicated. Here is the obvious connection between 'sign' and 'cross-shaped' thing:

Quote:

And the Lord God said to him, Not so, any one that slays Cain shall suffer seven-fold vengeance; and the Lord God set a sign (σημεῖον) upon Cain that no one that found him might slay him

The LXX says that God put a σημεῖον on Cain to protect him which was a cross so Justin just assumed that the σημεῖον which upon which the snake was put to protect Israel meant 'cross' in Numbers 21:8, 9 too. There is also this use of sign which looked like a chi

Quote:

And the blood shall be for a sign (σημεῖον) to you on the houses in which ye are, and I will see the blood, and will protect you, and there shall not be on you the plague of destruction, when I smite in the land of Egypt

stephan huller · 01-21-2012, 10:12 PM

Irenaeus stole the idea from Justin and put it in the Proof of Apostolic Preaching:

Quote:

So then by the obedience wherewith He obeyed even unto death, hanging on the tree, He put away the old disobedience which was wrought in the tree. Now seeing that He is the Word of God Almighty, who in unseen wise in our midst is universally extended in all the world, and encompasses its length and breadth and height and depth [1] ----for by the Word of God the whole universe is ordered and disposed----in it is crucified the Son of God, inscribed crosswise upon it all:[2] for it is right that He being made visible, should set upon all things visible the sharing of His cross, that He might show His operation on visible things through a visible form. For He it is who illuminates the height, that is the heavens; and encompasses the deep which is beneath the earth; and stretches and spreads out the length from east to west; and steers across the breadth of north and south; summoning all that are scattered in every quarter to the knowledge of the Father.

[1] V, xvii. 4: Ἐπεὶ γὰρ διὰ ξύλου ἀπεβάλομεν αὐτόν (sc. τὸν λόγον Κυρίου), διὰ ξὐλου πάλιν φανερὸς τοῖς πᾶσιν ἐγένετο, ἐπιδεικνύων τὸ ὕψος καὶ μῆκος καῖ πλάτος ἐν ἑαυτῷ·καὶ, ὡς ἔφη τις τῶν προβεβηκότων πρεσβυτέρων, διὰ τῆς ἐκτάσεως τῶν χειρῶν τοὺς δὐο λαοὺς εἰς ἓνα θεὸν συνάγων. The Greek, preserved in a Catena, is here emended from the Latin and Armenian versions, both of which omit καὶ βάθος.
[2] V, xviii. 2: “in hoc mundo existens, et secundum invisibilitatem continet quæ facta sunt omnia, et in universa conditione infixus (Arm. “and in all this world in-crucified ”), quoniam Verbum Dei gubernans et disponensomnia.” The thought is taken from Justin (Ap. 1. 60), who attributes to Plato the words: Ἐχίασεν αὐτὸν ἐν τῷ παντί (cf. Timæus 36 B.C.). See above, Introd. p. 29. Justin says that Plato misunderstanding the story of the Brazen Serpent, μηδὲ νοήσας τύπον εἶναι σταυροῦ, ἀλλὰ χίασμα γοήσας, τὴν μετὰ τὸν πρῶτον θεὸν δύναμιν κεχίασθαι ἐν τῷ παντὶ εἶπε.

stephan huller · 01-21-2012, 11:22 PM

There is another translation of the passage in Irenaeus

Quote:

And because he is himself the Word of God Almighty who in his invisible form pervades us universally in the whole world, and encompasses both its length and breadth and height and depth - for by God's Word everything is disposed and administered - the Son of God was also crucified in these, imprinted in the form of a cross on the universe; for he had necessarily, in becoming visible to bring to light the universality of his cross, in order to show it is he who makes bright the height, that is, what is in heaven, and holds the deep, which is in the bowels of the earth and stretches forth and extends the length from East to West, navigating also the Northern parts and the breadth to the South, and calling in all the dispersed from all sides to the knowledge of the Father

This is Joseph P Smith's translation which appears in the Ancient Christian Writers series. I bring it up because I think it is important not to tie the shape of the cross to the points north, east, west and south. Irenaeus's point simply seems to be the cross fans out in all directions. The Smith translation allows for the chi shaped cross which is important because both translators note that Irenaeus has borrowed from Justin.

stephan huller · 01-21-2012, 11:38 PM

I also find these fourth to fifth century images from Ravenna very interesting:

not from Ravenna

I think it confirms that the chi-rho was the 'sign' or 'sign of the cross' which we are commanded to carry with us.

Quote:

He (the Gnostic) follows, on his departure, Him who calls, as quickly, so to speak, as He who goes before calls, hasting by reason of a good conscience to give thanks; and having got there with Christ shows himself worthy, through his purity, to possess, by a process of blending, the power of God communicated by Christ. For he does not wish to be warm by participation in heat, or luminous by participation in flame, but to be wholly light.

He knows accurately the declaration, “Unless ye hate father and mother, and besides your own life, and unless ye bear the sign." For he hates the inordinate affections of the flesh, which possess the powerful spell of pleasure; and entertains a noble contempt for all that belongs to the creation and nutriment of the flesh. He also withstands the corporeal soul, putting a bridle-bit on the restive irrational spirit: “For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit.” [Gal. v. 17] And “to bear the sign” is to bear about death, by taking farewell of all things while still alive; since there is not equal love in “having sown the flesh,” [In allusion to Gal. vi. 8, where, however, the apostle speaks of sowing to the flesh] and in having formed the soul for knowledge.

He having acquired the habit of doing good, exercises beneficence well, quicker than speaking; praying that he may get a share in the sins of his brethren, in order to confession and conversion on the part of his kindred; and eager to give a share to those dearest to him of his own good things. And so these are to him, friends. Promoting, then, the growth of the seeds deposited in him, according to the husbandry enjoined by the Lord, he continues free of sin, and becomes continent, and lives in spirit with those who are like him, among the choirs of the saints, though still detained on earth. [Strom 7.12]

Another tangent. Compare Clement's citation here:

Quote:

“Unless ye hate father and mother, and besides your own life, and unless ye bear the sign." (ἐὰν μὴ μισήσητε τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὴν μητέρα, πρὸς ἔτι δὲ καὶ τὴν ἰδίαν ψυχήν, καὶ ἐὰν μὴ τὸ σημεῖον βαστάσητε)

With what appears earlier in Stromata 3:

Quote:

They quote the words "Anyone who does not hate father or mother, wife or children, cannot be my disciple." (ὃς δ' ἂν μὴ μισήσῃ, φασί, πατέρα ἢ μητέρα ἢ γυναῖκα ἢ τέκνα, ἐμὸς εἶναι μαθητὴς οὐ δύναται)This is not an exhortation to hate your family, since Scripture says, "Honor your father and mother, for it to be well with you."

Two Christian groups neither using a canonical text.

stephan huller · 01-21-2012, 11:42 PM

One more thing. What do you think about a connection with the pharmacy symbol:

mountainman · 01-22-2012, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I also find these fourth to fifth century images .... very interesting:

I think it confirms that the chi-rho was the 'sign' or 'sign of the cross' which we are commanded to carry with us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clement

..... [Strom 7.12]

The archaeology confirms the appearance of the "Christian" chi-rho and cross no earlier than the later 4th century. In the same century we have the Helena discovery of the original cross and nails in Jerusalem. How do these two facts fit in to the saga? Surely the greatest "Chrismon" was Helena's True Cross?

stephan huller · 01-22-2012, 12:53 AM

I know there is no point discussing the color of the sky with a blind man but the literary evidence from the second century makes clear that witnesses from that period saw a chi shaped cross (or tav shaped if you are Jewish which you are certainly not). Your ---- proposition is that Constantine invented the chi-rho, forged at least five witnesses whose testimony while related is different nonetheless. I am not interested in hearing your response. I am just confirming that if I could say that I think that you and your theory are so XXXXXXXXXXXXX that you should be thrown off this forum I would but I am barred from doing so Please find someone else to continue this idiotic discussion with. I consider it harassment even when you approach me with yet another variation of this stupidity. I will complain to the moderators. Please stop communicating with me in any form whatsoever.

mountainman · 01-22-2012, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

One more thing. What do you think about a connection with the pharmacy symbol:

Various claims via WIKI:

(1) Latin for recipee

(2) corruption of the ancient symbol for the Roman god Jupiter. ..... ♃

(3) Eye of Horus

The more interesting connection considering what you have posted above is the parallel between the snake staff of Moses and the snake staff of Asclepius. The staff of Asclepius is used on medical letter-head.

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01-21-2012, 09:25 PM	#32
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I think I came up with something. Wherever the Greek semeion is used in the LXX it is translating the original Hebrew אוֹת. The Hebrew word sandwiches the sixth letter (= 6) between the first and last letter, the Hebrew equivalent of the alpha and omega. I always noticed that the chresimon is often flanked by the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet: Alpha and omega (= beginning and end) is usually translated by the Hebrew word emet (= beginning, middle and end). I wonder if the chrismon is imitating the Hebrew word 'sign.' While chi is not the sixth letter it has a value of 600 which for kabbalists is the same thing.

01-21-2012, 11:42 PM	#37
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	One more thing. What do you think about a connection with the pharmacy symbol:

01-22-2012, 12:53 AM	#39
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I know there is no point discussing the color of the sky with a blind man but the literary evidence from the second century makes clear that witnesses from that period saw a chi shaped cross (or tav shaped if you are Jewish which you are certainly not). Your ---- proposition is that Constantine invented the chi-rho, forged at least five witnesses whose testimony while related is different nonetheless. I am not interested in hearing your response. I am just confirming that if I could say that I think that you and your theory are so XXXXXXXXXXXXX that you should be thrown off this forum I would but I am barred from doing so Please find someone else to continue this idiotic discussion with. I consider it harassment even when you approach me with yet another variation of this stupidity. I will complain to the moderators. Please stop communicating with me in any form whatsoever.

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