Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DCHindley · 07-04-2011, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtheistGamer

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

It says "They have pierced my hands and my feet." This agrees with the Septuagint and some MT manuscripts. Most MT manuscripts have "Like a lion are my hands and feet."

How do you know it says pierced?

'Cuz of this.

The Lxx translation, however, did not read the Hebrew word … ka’ari, “like a lion” [as does the Masoretic Text] but rather … ka’aru, “they dug [into],” and thus they translated the word with the Greek word … ōruxsan, “they dug [into]” or “they pierced.” The difference was whether the original word ended with a vav [ka’aru] or a yod [ka’ari].

The Ps 22:16 fragment from the cave of letters clearly has the vav (aka "waw," see the picture in the linked article), and so is an early Hebrew mss that agrees with the Septuagint (Lxx) against the majority of later Hebrew manuscripts of psalms which follow the "official" Masoretic Text.

DCH

JoeWallack · 07-06-2011, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtheistGamer

Thanks Joe. Do you happen to have a degree in this stuff?

JW:
Actually spin is the educated one. Think of spin as John Stewart and me as Stephen Colbert. I'm starting a related SuperPac called The Bar Kochbert SuperSkepac and I accept all denomination. 5s, 10s, 20s... Please send your contributions to Christonnotforever.com.

Quote:

Honestly unless the people looking at the text have some sort of special device like a blacklight that makes the faded ink glow I don't know how the hell they are able to tell what is what.

JW:
Agreed. With the combination of the similar script for the Yod and Vav, faded text and overall size distortion it's hard to distinguish. All three professionals who wrote related articles in The Journal of Biblical Literature mentioning Nahal Hever say the offending letter is either "illegible" or difficult to read. The standard reference to the offending word is "Peter Flint claims that".

Quote:

If the word can either end in a Yod or a Vav with only a Yod spelling a word, then how do other scholars conclude that it is pierced?

JW:
There is absolutely no evidence in the original language, Hebrew, for a translation of "pierced", so for the evidence to yield a likely meaning of "pierced" would be more reMarkable than the resurrection (I tell you the truth though, I never believed in any type of resurrection until I saw John Travolta in Pulp Fiction).

Apologists and those duped by Apologists conclude the offending word is "pierced" as follows:

1) Assume that the offending letter is Vav.

2) Assume that an Aleph has been added for pronunciation purposes.

(This fragment shows no examples of this)

(There are no known examples of doing this for the offending word)

3) Assume that the Hebrew word without the Aleph, which means "dig", includes a meaning of "pierced" within its semantic range.

(There are no examples of a meaning of "pierced" for this word)

(All uses of the word except one refer to ground digging)

(The word has a clear creative (as opposed to destructive) meaning in all uses but one and a likely creative meaning in the one)

(Hebrew has other words with a clear meaning of "pierced")

Quote:

Are there any apologists on these forums that could give their side of the arguments?

I Am not aware of any here. Detailed Threads like Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Determining Who's Original And Who's Lion? seem to scare them off for some reason.

Quote:

Also I know that the majority of Masoretic texts from the middle ages have like a lion, but the septuigint has a word for dig. Who was the sep. preserved by over the ages? If it was christians then I could see a christian interpolation issue going on easily with the Masoretic staying true to the original Hebrew.

JW:
First of all, there was never one official Septuagint. "Septuagint" refers to Jewish translations (Greek) of The Jewish Bible. The few known related Jewish translations of the second century all use different words for the offending word, none of them "dig".

Quote:

HOLY SHIT! I just read Psalm 22, and the author uses lions several times in his Psalm.

Quote:

They gape upon me with their mouth, [As] a ravening and a roaring lion.

Psalms 22:14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; It is melted within me.

Psalms 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; And thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: A company of evil-doers have inclosed me; They pierced my hands and my feet.

Psalms 22:17 I may count all my bones; They look and stare upon me.

Psalms 22:18 They part my garments among them, And upon my vesture do they cast lots.

Psalms 22:19 But be not thou far off, O Jehovah: O thou my succor, haste thee to help me.

Psalms 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword, My darling from the power of the dog.

Psalms 22:21 Save me from the lion`s mouth

Like a lion at my hands and feet totally fits with the rest of the text, since lions seem to be a theme of the text. How stupid are these people who think it says pierced??!

JW:
Yes, having one of the choices of the offending word be "like a lion" seems to be a tremendous coincidence here.

Gamer, you are trying to look at this the right Way. Going to the sources. Basically the choices are who are you going to believe, Peter Flint or your own eyes (kind of says it all for Christianity).

The start is the original language, Hebrew. To move forward, let's take a look at the meaning candidates for the offending word:

Summary Of Textual Variation

Quote:

======Summary Of Textual Variation======

Frum (which near as I can tell is reliable):

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/pierce.html#hev

Here is a survey of the offending word from the Masoretic text:

The majority reading of "kaari" would be in thousands of manuscripts. "kaaru" is said to be in 3 to 10. This probably means that 3 manuscripts clearly have a "vav" at the end while with 7 manuscripts its unclear whether the last letter is a "vav" or "yod". For those who don't know Hebrew like the OP you can see in the image that "kaari" has a "yod" at the end while "kaaru" has a "vav". Note that a "vav" is a "yod" which extends all the way down so if a letter made by hand was in between you couldn't be sure which was meant.
"karu" is in two manuscripts.

'''1)''' I think the first conclusion to make is that with this kind of '''ratio''', thousands to 3-10 and 2, the default position is that "kaari" is likely original.

The Masoretic Text represents the Official Received text by Mainstream Judaism and therefore would have the most weight of any Hebrew textual tradition.

The next consideration is possible '''reasons''' for variation. I've already pointed out that the difference between "kaari" and "kaaru" is a "yod" vs. "vav" for the last letter. "kaaru" could be reasonably explained by a scribe mistakenly writing a "vav" instead of a "yod" by continuing the vertical "yod" down. Related to this, "kaaru" would otherwise be an unknown word. Thus we have good reason to believe that "kaaru" is a result of scribal '''error'''.

"karu" is a known word found in two manuscripts meaning "they dig". A possible explanation for scribal change to "karu" is that the sentence containing "kaari" would otherwise have no '''verb''', "like a lion, my hands and my legs". "karu" solves the problem of no verb by supplying one that is phoenetically close to "kaari".

'''2''') The second conclusion to make is these explanations are only guesses but as guesses go they are reasonable and the combination of the dominance of "kaari" with reasonable guesses for the slight variation makes it pretty likely that "kaari" is original. With this Type of dominant direct textual evidence it would be difficult to even imagine what other potential evidence could overcome the presumption that "kaari" is Original.

In order to consider the possibility that whatever was original was '''intentionally''' changed to "kaari" let's look at the context next.

2) Origen's Hexapla had a Hebrew column which Christianity declined to preserve.

JW:
These than are your candidates for the original offending word based on the original language Hebrew. The related Semitic langauge, Aramaic, supports the Masoretic "like a lion". It's the Christian Greek translations that have significant textual variation for the offending word which is evidence that they did not accept the word they saw. Combined with the Christian reputation for poor TransMission skills compared to the Jewish Hebrew, you are not going to overturn the Hebrew evidence for "like a lion" with Greek translation evidence. All you have to work with are the two minority Hebrew candidates. But how to translate either into "pierced"?

Related to this, the Christian English translation of "pierced" can be demonstrated to be a leapoffaithfrog game:

1) Start with Hebrew.

2) Ignore Aleph.

3) Replace Yod with Vav.

4) Get to Greek translation of "dig".

5) Translate to Latin word with broader meaning including "pricked" (I kid you not).

6) Select "pierced" for English translations.

To be continued...

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

andrewcriddle · 07-06-2011, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Summary Of Textual Variation

Quote:

======Summary Of Textual Variation======

Frum (which near as I can tell is reliable):

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/pierce.html#hev

Here is a survey of the offending word from the Masoretic text:

The majority reading of "kaari" would be in thousands of manuscripts. "kaaru" is said to be in 3 to 10. This probably means that 3 manuscripts clearly have a "vav" at the end while with 7 manuscripts its unclear whether the last letter is a "vav" or "yod". For those who don't know Hebrew like the OP you can see in the image that "kaari" has a "yod" at the end while "kaaru" has a "vav". Note that a "vav" is a "yod" which extends all the way down so if a letter made by hand was in between you couldn't be sure which was meant.
"karu" is in two manuscripts.

'''1)''' I think the first conclusion to make is that with this kind of '''ratio''', thousands to 3-10 and 2, the default position is that "kaari" is likely original.

The Masoretic Text represents the Official Received text by Mainstream Judaism and therefore would have the most weight of any Hebrew textual tradition.

The next consideration is possible '''reasons''' for variation. I've already pointed out that the difference between "kaari" and "kaaru" is a "yod" vs. "vav" for the last letter. "kaaru" could be reasonably explained by a scribe mistakenly writing a "vav" instead of a "yod" by continuing the vertical "yod" down. Related to this, "kaaru" would otherwise be an unknown word. Thus we have good reason to believe that "kaaru" is a result of scribal '''error'''.

"karu" is a known word found in two manuscripts meaning "they dig". A possible explanation for scribal change to "karu" is that the sentence containing "kaari" would otherwise have no '''verb''', "like a lion, my hands and my legs". "karu" solves the problem of no verb by supplying one that is phoenetically close to "kaari".

'''2''') The second conclusion to make is these explanations are only guesses but as guesses go they are reasonable and the combination of the dominance of "kaari" with reasonable guesses for the slight variation makes it pretty likely that "kaari" is original. With this Type of dominant direct textual evidence it would be difficult to even imagine what other potential evidence could overcome the presumption that "kaari" is Original.

In order to consider the possibility that whatever was original was '''intentionally''' changed to "kaari" let's look at the context next.

2) Origen's Hexapla had a Hebrew column which Christianity declined to preserve.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

Geocities is defunct try the wayback machine
pierce.html#hev

Andrew Criddle

mg01 · 07-07-2011, 02:36 PM

Quote:

1917 JPS

For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.

Quote:

NetBible

Yes, wild dogs surround me – a gang of evil men crowd around me; like a lion they pin my hands and feet.

Quote:

NIV

Dogs have surrounded me a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.

Quote:

NRSV

For dogs are all around me; a company of evildoers encircles me. My hands and feet have shriveled

NRSV: Shriveled? Also NIV once again shows it's fundamentalist leanings.

Given the prior and subsequent mention of lions isn't this case closed? This is poetry after all.

Edit: Chiastic structure pretty much "nails" it...

A. Bulls Psalm 22:11

B. Lion (including mention of mouths) Psalm 22:13
C. Dogs Psalm 22:16a
X. Lion Psalm 22:16b

C'. Dogs Psalm 22:20

B'. Lion (including mention of mouth) Psalm 22:21a

A'. Oxen Psalm 22:21b

Also in that same article re-parsing and pairing, "My hands and feet" with "I can count my bones" works in the poem's structure and resolves the it needs a verb issue.

thief of fire · 07-07-2011, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mg01

Given the prior and subsequent mention of lions isn't this case closed? This is poetry after all.

Edit: <link> pretty much "nails" it...

.

Is a/b/c/b/c/b/a a recognized chiastic structure? I know that a/b/c/c/b/a is.

Apology I had to remove your link (which did not work anyhow) as this was my first post

AtheistGamer · 07-11-2011, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtheistGamer

How do you know it says pierced?

'Cuz of this.

The Lxx translation, however, did not read the Hebrew word … ka’ari, “like a lion” [as does the Masoretic Text] but rather … ka’aru, “they dug [into],” and thus they translated the word with the Greek word … ōruxsan, “they dug [into]” or “they pierced.” The difference was whether the original word ended with a vav [ka’aru] or a yod [ka’ari].

The Ps 22:16 fragment from the cave of letters clearly has the vav (aka "waw," see the picture in the linked article), and so is an early Hebrew mss that agrees with the Septuagint (Lxx) against the majority of later Hebrew manuscripts of psalms which follow the "official" Masoretic Text.

DCH

Thanks for the evidence. Now I know that the word doesn't say pierced unless you jump through some apologetic hoops in order to argue that it's possible that the word for pierced was spelled differently.

I don't like how the article "highlights" the text. Anybody reading that article is going to think that even though the original text is faded it is legible enough to tell the difference between the two key letters, but the original picture in this thread isn't legible enough for that.

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