dog-on

Clement and/or Ignatius, but nothing to pin down whose version is the original until some later comments by Ireneus and Tertullian...

Justin doesn't seem to know him, post 140AD.... but sometime before that, I would guess...

TedM

By showing that what you would expect as a result of it's absense is what did exist. Doesn't sound that unreasonable to me..

TedM

Thanks Geetamoore, for indulging.


I've toned down the Jesus here to a preacher who was crucified, and believed to have been resurrected. Not sure we should have expected contemporary evidence in such a case, especially given the dearth of surviving documents.

Not sure why you would expect this.


That's a good one, though there is the quote of Jesus at the Last Supper. Sure could be plenty more though. It's hard for me to judge how strong an argument this is.


I think only one makes the claim to be an eyewitness (John), so only the other 3 can be discredited on that basis.


Ok. However it isn't unreasonable to mythologize a real person, so to me this isn't very compelling.


Agreed.


thanks,

ted

TedM

You may have a point. I'll keep it in mind as we progress. Thanks,

ted

TedM

Not sure what invention you are referring to. Good points though. I'm not suggesting the gospel Jesus, however. Paul's response to Jesus could be explained by a combination of a toned-down actual preacher Jesus and belief that he was resurrected.


Yes, this argues against some of the supernatural elements. Not a HJ Jesus like I've described though, right?



I think mythers don't like the idea of a preacher Jesus who was crucified and believed to be resurrected. Even without the great teachings and miracles, this is "too close" to a gospel Jesus, or something. Others, like you, think that such a Jesus leaves very little. I think it leaves enough to explain the rise of Christianity, and a lot better than the alternative explanations I've seen. And, it still makes for a fascinating story, because I then would conclude that Jesus himself orchestrated his own crucifixion.

ted

TedM

Thanks dog-on! It's quite a grey area..I need to read up on the whole dating of the gospels thing to see if there are strong reasons to accept the orthodox dating schemes..

ted

mountainman

The theory in which christianity arises by political means
in the fourth century has no problems with the perceived
lack of evidence for early christianity. Mainstream theory
has a whole stack of postulates, abstractions and next to
zero evidence to substantiate itself.

The former theory has a greater relational integrity, and
only one postulate (as compared to many mainstream ones).
It is alot simpler - that's what I mean.


Why did it take a supreme imperial mafia thug, murderer,
and military supremacist dictator to create the Holy ROman
Universal Church --- at precisely the time his armies had
control of the eastern empire?

Why did a wife-killer and son-killer publish
the new (and strange) testament?

Why did the thug pull down the public hospital system?
Why did he persecute the healing priests of Asclepius?
You tell me.




Read the text of TAOPATTA

Do some serious textual criticism of it.
Is Lithargoel Jesus Christ, the son of the Living God?
Or is he just a mysterious Pearl Man and Healer.
A citizen of the city of "Nine Gates" -- the body.

A christian will read TAOPATTA a hundred times.
Every time they will exclaim ....

Oh ! Oh ! Of course !!!!
Lithargoel is Jesus Christ!
What a lovely strange story!

Take the name of Jesus Christ out of the picture.
Substitute spiderman or superman or something
else so that this huge emotional association to
the authority of Jesus Christ is one-step removed.

Does Lithargoel have to be JC?
Why didnt the apostles recognise JC?
Who do you think might recognise JC
the most --- surely his 11, 12 or 13 apostles.


Can you see the allegory ?
The city of Nine Gates.
Its from the Gita.
Its just the human body.

The universal postulate of life
(belonging to all religions and none)
is that of the emodied soul.

You can learn to dwell within your body
in peace as a citizen - like Lithargoel, the
healer -- or, you can stay outside the gates
of the city like the inept, non-ascetic
christian ministry and apostles, who are
concerned with food, lodging and the
abstraction of the external world.

The author has buried a few things
in the text of TAOPATTA ...
and why from the Gita?

Because Jesus is a fiction.
A fourth century fiction.

And the fourth century christian
ministry was a tax-exempt scam,
and imperial racket.


Best wishes,


Pete Brown

TedM

Thanks mountainman. It seems like a lot to read to put together a puzzle which you have already done. I don't understand your various points or questions about it, but may after reading it. Can I just ask, why do you conclude that Jesus is a 4th century fiction? Why not 3rd or 2nd?

ted

mountainman

No No Ted!

This message needs to be understood
an individual at a time. I believe it is
of vital importance that everyone tries
to understand the allegory of the pearl.

The pearl man is not a merchant.
He is an ascetic healer.

He is a therapeutae of the Healers.
In the lineage of Galen, etc.

The medical profession of antiquity
was perpetuated by a ministry of
ascetics. Pythagorean, not Essenic.

Philo differentiates them.


I would certain be happy to discuss any ideas
that might arise from this exercise. Thanks Ted.

A fiction may only be implemented after
it is devised, fabricated and assembled.

Its implementation will cause a tremendous
intellectual and political controversy in which
all the tell-tale signatures of chaos and turbulence
will be identified.

All roads point to Rome 312 CE for the design,
and Nicaea 325 CE for the implementation,
and the Arian controversy will only be understood
when the NHC 6.1 "TAOPATTA" is understood
to be one of the "Lost Songs" (of Opposition)
of the ascetic Alexandrian priest (perhaps of
Asclepius) -- Arius.

Before he was born he was not.

etc.

Best wishes


Pete Brown

Freethinkaluva

Ted, the issue folks have here with your original post/question is that you're asking for folks to prove a negative i.e. to prove that something doesn't exist. The best evidence for such a case in this case would be the severe absence of evidence.

"Absence of evidence is evidence of absence" in this case.

For nearly 2,000 years Christians haven't been able to properly supply the evidence for any Jesus of the bible. If after 2,000 years, believers still can't meet the requirements of the principle of "burden of proof" i.e. to supply evidence. Then that should give you a clue.

None of the evidence Christians have claimed was evidence has stood up to scrutiny. As others have mentioned here their best evidence turns out to be 4th century forgeries and interpolations and worse.

Add to that all the errors in translations, versions, contradictions within the bible itself is enough to be skeptical.

Add another dimension, many of the claims are not original. Many trace back to Mithra, Krishna, Buddha and Egyptian gods like Ra, Osiris, Horus etc.

Now, add to that the evidence of Mithra, Ra, Osiris, Horus etc having similarities and as being astronomical, representing the SUN, moon stars constellations etc i.e. natural phenomena. They are personifications of the sun with myths and religious Ideas surrounding them. Otherwise known as Astrotheology.

"Zeitgeist" part 1 video based on Acharya's work (starts @ 9:45-35. Acharya has nothing to do with parts 2 & 3)
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com

Astrotheology of the Ancients
http://www.truthbeknown.com/astrotheology.html