Freethought & Rationalism Archive

braces_for_impact · 11-19-2005, 11:39 AM

Quote:

As a layman, what strikes me is how much the "experts" disagree with each other, that all their interpretations of the documents line-up fairly well with their prior metaphysical biases, that there's no real independent resource to see who's right and who's wrong, and that basically, everybody ends up with the Jesus (or lack thereof) they desire.

I'm of the opinion that there's enough data out there and enough plausible interpretations of it to satisfy everybody's pet theories without anybody being irrational or anybody really being able to prove their theories are correct or anybody else's wrong.

A question then if I may. If this is truly the case, then wouldn't the proper stance be to hold an undecided view about the existence of Jesus?

Amaleq13 · 11-19-2005, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvluv

Yeah, well, regardless of whether he's talking to or about John, he's talking. And you have to exist to talk, is my point.

This brings us back to a question someone else asked about your knowledge of what a "sayings source" is. It is a collection of sayings attributed to a certain figure. I think it is fairly obvious that the mere fact sayings are attributed to a figure does not constitute evidence that the figure actually existed.

Quote:

I'm of the opinion that there's enough data out there and enough plausible interpretations of it to satisfy everybody's pet theories without anybody being irrational or anybody really being able to prove their theories are correct or anybody else's wrong.

I agree and that is why I tend to be agnostic about the existence of Jesus.

Chris Weimer · 11-19-2005, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvluv

I'm of the opinion that there's enough data out there and enough plausible interpretations of it to satisfy everybody's pet theories without anybody being irrational or anybody really being able to prove their theories are correct or anybody else's wrong.

I would agree except for your first statement - its not that there's too much data, but there's not enough data! Even in modernity we only know a tiny fraction of what's actually happening. Unless we start making some major discoveries, we will never know the historical Jesus, if even one existed.

Chris Weimer · 11-19-2005, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freigeister

You mean there were thirty years between the time Christ started preaching and the time somebody wrote something about him? In a place where there was over 90% illiteracy? Where his followers were the lowest of the low? Where the deeds and sayings of the establishment figures weren't written down until 200 years later? Ya don't say!

Not quite right. It's true that Mark's usually dated to the mid-to-late seventies CE, however, there's no standard biographical information about Jesus' years except for the Pilate reference. Pilate was governor from 26-36 CE, putting the earliest date on Mark as 40 years. Moreover, Mark is clearly liturgical and not historical, and later "historical" sources borrowed directly from Mark, thus negating the possibility of a real relationship to the historical Jesus. Moreover, estalbishment figures had plenty of contemporaries to note their existence. Josephus wrote at the time of Vespasian, did he not? And he made Vespasian the Messiah! Tacitus, born only twenty years after Josephus, did likewise.

Minnesota Joe · 11-19-2005, 09:56 PM

I just saw The God Who Wasn't There. luvluv was correct about the music--it sucked, but I just ignored it. Besides, music is expensive.

The rest of the documentary is fabulous but too short--Fleming described quite accurately how I grew up (Rapture, etc.). His criticism of "moderate" Christians is timely. The comparison between Jesus and other mythical figures is especially well done.

The documentary was supposed to be one sided. Fleming is done with that nonsense and we have had way too much of the Christian side of the story as it is.

In all, I think the movie is worth purchasing both for its content and to support this type of film.

I wasn't disturbed by Richard's age as I know what kind of thinker he is, but I really need to purchase Sam Harris's book. He spoke quite eloquently; I hope he writes just as well.

EarlDoherty · 11-19-2005, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnesota Joe

but I really need to purchase Sam Harris's book. He spoke quite eloquently; I hope he writes just as well.

He certainly does. If anyone is interested, I 'reviewed' Harris' "The End of Faith", with a number of excerpts from the text, on my Age of Reason website. You can read it at: http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/AORComment11.htm

FarmMama · 11-20-2005, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnesota Joe

I just saw The God Who Wasn't There. luvluv was correct about the music--it sucked, but I just ignored it. Besides, music is expensive.

The rest of the documentary is fabulous but too short--Fleming described quite accurately how I grew up (Rapture, etc.). His criticism of "moderate" Christians is timely. The comparison between Jesus and other mythical figures is especially well done.

The documentary was supposed to be one sided. Fleming is done with that nonsense and we have had way too much of the Christian side of the story as it is.

In all, I think the movie is worth purchasing both for its content and to support this type of film.

I wasn't disturbed by Richard's age as I know what kind of thinker he is, but I really need to purchase Sam Harris's book. He spoke quite eloquently; I hope he writes just as well.

I thought it was a very well written book as did all of my friends that I passed it on to. Also, I haven't done a search on this but he was on C-SPAN Book TV a while ago, I just can't remember when prezackly

(maybe Oct 2004). I know that many times C-SPAN archives their stuff and I'd recommend that particular hour as well.

Amaleq13 · 11-20-2005, 05:40 PM

mata leao's End Times rant is not relevant to this thread and has been moved here for anyone interested in reading it.

Amaleq13, BC&H moderator

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11-19-2005, 09:56 PM	#55
Minnesota Joe Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,322	I just saw The God Who Wasn't There. luvluv was correct about the music--it sucked, but I just ignored it. Besides, music is expensive. The rest of the documentary is fabulous but too short--Fleming described quite accurately how I grew up (Rapture, etc.). His criticism of "moderate" Christians is timely. The comparison between Jesus and other mythical figures is especially well done. The documentary was supposed to be one sided. Fleming is done with that nonsense and we have had way too much of the Christian side of the story as it is. In all, I think the movie is worth purchasing both for its content and to support this type of film. I wasn't disturbed by Richard's age as I know what kind of thinker he is, but I really need to purchase Sam Harris's book. He spoke quite eloquently; I hope he writes just as well.

11-20-2005, 05:40 PM	#58
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	mata leao's End Times rant is not relevant to this thread and has been moved here for anyone interested in reading it. Amaleq13, BC&H moderator

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