Sheshbazzar

Other than my pointing to that difference between the OT examples of passing through the waters,as opposed to the NT example of walking upon the waters, it may be noticed that my list above provided no NT verses, nor my personal interpretations of such, this to allow others to bring forth such verses and to stimulate a little thought and study of the subject, as Solo has above.
Come on folks, you do not need to be "Christian", "Jewish" or religious, to lend your obsevations to Johann's query.

Sheshbazzar

Hmmm, well I do admit that I am not thoroughly educated as to the present state of civil rights under South African government.
Has it now became against the law there, to act coercively, irrationally, irresponsibly or manipulatively?
Are there then no longer any churches permitted to operate publicly?
And do religious men there, now refrain from acting coercively, irrationally, irresponsibly and manipulatively? are they fined? or imprisoned for their religious beliefs or statements?

Steve Weiss

Coercion, the initiation of physical force, would be illegal in most countries, at least when done by individuals as opposed to governments and churches. So would irresponsible actions be punishable such a drinking while driving or causing damages by intent or negligence. Manipulation, as in fraud, would also carry sanctions in most countries, again with the exception of those actions taken by church and state. I don't think that "the church told me to do it" would qualify as a defense either. So what kind of anarchy do you live in?

jakejonesiv

This is a remnant of the original Docetic beliefs. Jesus was a phantom.

Jake

Casper

Or it could be symbolic midrash indicating Jesus has power over the sea, just as Moses and Joshua had (an allusion to Yaweh's superiority over Ba'al).

Its far from a miracle, of course, some Mormon guy did it too

Sheshbazzar

In the social mileu, when those individuals, (or groups) are not "opposed" to the government or churches, but have attained such political power that they and their ideas effectively control government power, and the social policy, and far from being "opposed" to the churches, these individuals (and groups) are the actual voices of the churches.
I reside within the so-called "Bible Belt" of the Southern U.S. where everyday there arise controversies over what religious ideas, institutions, and teachings, the public policy ought to be in support of;
Well guess what, virtually every government official, and person that is in such political position to vote on matters of public policy, is a member of a religious orgaization.
See above.

My reference to "a right to be nuts, and to act irrationally, irresponsibly, manipulatively and coercively" was in reference only to religious beliefs and practices, and the actions of those who attempt to force their views and practices upon others. And whom of course also attempt to use the authority of the State to control actions that would in any other instance be perfectly legal; Ever heard of "Blue Laws"?

Toto

The Chili digression has been split off here

Ishmael

<sarcasm>...because walking on water sooooooooo miracles that only a Savior could *fake* it</saracasm>
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/151236...alks_on_water/

Fortuna

I was thinking of that one myself. The writer possibly thought of Jesus as spirit with no substance therefore no weight.

That's a good point. But, there are Greek stories of walking upon water. According to Wiki there is a greek example from the story of Orion the hunter and of an egyptian story of the god Horus walking on water. One would think that Orion almost certainly, and possibly the Horus stories would have been known to Greco-Roman audiences. As I recall, Mark gives explanations to his readers of Jewish customs, implying that his target audience wee not Jewish.
Perhaps it's a fusion of ancient Jewish and Greek myths, a Greek variation on the Jewish water myth.

And We do find themes like this from Greek mythology in other gospels (i.e. As in Luke's birth narrative, virgin birth, cosmic events (stars) heralding the birth of a king).

Of course this isn't a difficult trick to reproduce naturally either, perhaps even unintentionally. One needs only to observe someone walking along a sandbar at low tide. Many lakes will have sandbars or even rocky structures just below the surface.

Ultimately the intention was to portray Jesus as something more than man, and the gospels are full of such miraculous events attributed to Jesus, just like many other stories of heroes and healers from that time period and general locale. (there's no shortage of them).
-------------------------------------------------------------

Belshezzar,

Stanton Ky ! (isn;t there also a "New Stanton" down there ? My father was a physician who when I was young practiced in the Cincinnati/ Northern Ky area. He and other physician used to go down past Winchester KY and down the Mountain Parkway to visit clinics down in those areas (i.e. Powell county).
Of course, He used to make me come along during summer vacation and on Saturdays to act as his nurse and to snap some radiographs with a mobile unit (it was barely mobile, but....). For some people he used to make house calls. (Now you KNOW it was some time ago !). And, they (he and the other MDs) never charged these people for their services.

I remember one elderly woman who was dying of some type of cancer, they would check in on her and deliver morphine to her to treat her pain. Her "sons" used to steal it from her and either take it or sell it (don;t know which, I would hope they sold it for food, these people wee dirt poor). The elderly woman told my father this, so he gave her 2 bottles, one to sit out on her night stand and let her sons steal, and another he would tell her to hide and take it for her pain. (At the time I was appalled at my father for doing that, since he (my father) paid for that womans meds out of his own pocket, never charged her anything, I would have had those SOB so-called sons of hers thrown in jail). But, he taught me about people and I learned a lot of humility and mercy from visting those clinics and people. Of course, now, in modern times my father probably would have lost his license for doing that. Now that I'm older (much older) I understand and agree with his decisions. But you really can't get away with stuff like that anymore.

Chili

. . . and so was Mary and also Magdalene who was the temple tramp inside the conscious mind of Joseph the Jew who's faculty of reason was called Pilate who in turn was a subject of Herod who ruled surpreme over the being called Joseph the upright Jewish carpenter, as in "I, we four were but one of the innumerable waves of a powerful torrent" (WE, Zamjatin page 7 Dutton paperback).