storytime

I always thought it meant not to kill and prepare a pregnant goat either for sacrifice to Yahweh or as a regular meal for the family.

semiopen

The OP implication that Christians understand the bible better than Jews is sort of outrageous.

I'm not sure why Deuteronomy is specifically brought up, maybe it sounds more intelligent somehow. Binding laws are in every book in the Torah except Genesis.

This is the famous law that both participants in homosexual rape must be killed. This law is considered valid by Conservative Christians but they use the law of the state bullshit argument. If the law is proper these Christians should be trying to make it the law of the state; it's just hypocrisy.

In Judaism, there is generally a requirement to have a crime witnessed by two witnesses (or three witnesses) and the perpetrators warned before someone can actually be convicted. Therefore in a homosexual rape, it is difficult to imagine how a conviction could possibly happen.

A lot of this (the laws) relate to the fact that they had to come up with 613 binding laws; 365 negative and 248 positive. This is a rabbinic concept and so far as I'm aware didn't even exist before the Talmud was "compiled" after the death of Jesus; although I'd be surprised if someone couldn't refute this or at least argue to the contrary.

Anat

With 365 standing for the days of a solar year or the number of tendons supposedly in the body, and 248 standing for the number of organs supposedly in the body. Don't ask me how those were counted.

bondo

I think that is just you reading more into the post than was there. Of course the Jews know the Torah better than the Christians. When I am arguing with a Christian I often won't get them to concede that completely though.

gupwalla

Are you implying that the Jews do not faithfully keep Torah because you've never seen Mrs. Goldman down the street stone someone to death?

According to Jewish records and tradition, capital punishment was all but outlawed in Jewish courts at around the same time as the purported execution of Jesus (there is some irony there, perhaps) and had been increasingly rare leading up to that time.

The reasoning is similar to that of the Pericope Adulterae*: the court is fallible and made of fallible men, therefore there is always some doubt about the accuracy of a finding of guilt. If the court errs on the side of finding a guilty man innocent, the court is guilty of excessive forgiveness. If the court errs on the side of finding an innocent man guilty and then carries out an improper death sentence, the court is guilty of murder. It is better to forgive than to commit murder, so the proper course of action for the court is clear.

And in the Jewish understanding, a man who studies the law and discovers that "he shall die, you shall stone him with stones" really means "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" has glimpsed a sliver of the true Wisdom of God, which is the true purpose of obedience to the law, Amen.

* almost certainly not part of the original gospel; perhaps not even an original saying of Jesus even assuming a Jesus. But, it's in line with Jewish thinking of the time and the story may have been a popular teaching tool for legal scholars -- as may have also been the various other "legal debates" recorded in the gospels.

semiopen

They're listed by Maimonides in two volumes. It's pretty remarkable that it works out. Most (or a good portion) of the laws were only in force while the temple was going; like the sacrificial laws.

Commandments: The 613 Mitzvoth of the Totrah elucidated in English (2 vol.)

I have a pretty good library and own this. Can't say I've spent many hours actually reading it.

semiopen

Sorry, you're probably right.

I'm involved in this brutal Why the Jews thread in WH. There, many of the posters think almost anything is anti-Semitic.

Ironically, though I totally disagree with these posters; there is a Christian line I've heard about how can the Jews so misunderstand the bible that they don't see all the signs pointing to Jesus. For whatever reason, that really pisses me off, and I consider that anti-Semitic.

The OP sort of brushes against that, but you're right, it doesn't cross any lines.

Gotta stay away from WH... too much stress.

storytime

Stay away from WH? Well gee, I hope not. I enjoy your posts and might even learn something.

storytime

Why would you think the Jews knew the Torah better than the Christians? It sounds to me like the Jews simply made up interpretations to their laws to fit whatever circumstance. Of course avoiding the death penalty would have been a major concern.

storytime

What? "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" held wisdom in punishing of the guilty by the innocent. (so as to keep evil out of Israel). Judgment is therefore accorded to the righteous and not the sinner. Those who are not guilty of the crime judge those who are. So, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is a perfectly good legal obligation for law abiding citizenry. Else, good society falls to the wicked in their evil attempt to avoid punishment. And not only that, the good are caused to suffer and die due to their laxity in carrying out the standard of law set.