Freethought & Rationalism Archive

shirley knott · 11-06-2007, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktsai

A person I met is trying to inculcate me with his beliefs. He emailed me this as proof of the "absolute authority of God's word." Supposedly, these are prophecies in the bible that came true. I don't know much about the historicity of these. Can someone please verify if these prophecies have been fulfilled and are true/false:

Once this person claimed prophecies were fulfilled, then it is this person's obligation to provide you with specific corroborated details.

This person must be able to show or prove the following:

1. The date the prophecy was actually written or proclaimed.
2. That the so-called prophecy was not taken out of context, that is, the statement was never considered to be a prophecy until an event occurred later that made the previous statement appear prophetic.
3. The person who made the so-called prophetic statement actually lived.

If a person claimed an event really occurred, they must have proof that it actually did.

And that's just for starters.
ALL of the above conditions must, of course, be met. But they do not serve to establish grounds to distinguish prophecy from concidence, prediction, lucky guess, or purposeful efforts to 'fulfill' the prophecy so as to insure its occurrence.
There needs to be a very high bar for claims of 'prophecy' or we are still dealing with [intentional, I would say] ambiguity in service of logical and semantic fraud.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

Malachi151 · 11-06-2007, 07:18 AM

Don't forget that the "History Channel" just devoted a week to Nostradamus, with tons of shows talking about how he has so accurately predicted everything, and claiming that he had such prophetic power, and that the end fo the world must be coming becuase he said so, etc.....

This is the world we live in....

-Jay- · 11-06-2007, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Don't forget that the "History Channel" just devoted a week to Nostradamus, with tons of shows talking about how he has so accurately predicted everything, and claiming that he had such prophetic power, and that the end fo the world must be coming becuase he said so, etc.....

This is the world we live in....

I love the claim that the world will end in 2012 because that's when the Mayan calendar runs out...

Sometimes the stupid burns.

regards,

NinJay

Mythra · 11-06-2007, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agenda07

Firstly, the Gospel of Matthew is generally considered to have been written after 70AD, making this 'prophecy' less than impressive. Any idiot can predict the past with great precision.

Just an observation here. If, indeed Matthew was authored after the destruction of Jerusalem, wouldn't the prophecy have been so much better as this:

"I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down, except the west wall which will be left intact."

On the other hand, there is nothing to indicate that the author of Matthew was anywhere near Jerusalem when he penned his work - possibly from Rome or Alexandria?. Perhaps he just assumed - or had heard the reports - that there was nothing left of the temple.

Agenda07 · 11-06-2007, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agenda07

Firstly, the Gospel of Matthew is generally considered to have been written after 70AD, making this 'prophecy' less than impressive. Any idiot can predict the past with great precision.

Just an observation here. If, indeed Matthew was authored after the destruction of Jerusalem, wouldn't the prophecy have been so much better as this:

"I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down, except the west wall which will be left intact."

On the other hand, there is nothing to indicate that the author of Matthew was anywhere near Jerusalem when he penned his work - possibly from Rome or Alexandria?. Perhaps he just assumed - or had heard the reports - that there was nothing left of the temple.

Your suggestion is certainly a valid explanation for the lack of detail: he simply didn't know.

Another possible explanation would be that the author wasn't really interested in the details of the temple's destruction and was more concerned with the theological interpretation and implications of it from a Christian perspective.

Boro Nut · 11-06-2007, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

What have archaeological digs uncovered re these walls? Has any part been found? If so, was any stone still resting upon another?

As any good mason will tell you, the best stone is not obtained from quarries. It's far less work to nick some rubble off an old ruin. Let some bugger else cut it to size for you any day. So until someone comes up with an authenticated pile of rubble the size of a lost temple, the smart money is on these stones being just as on top of one another as they ever were.

Boro Nut

ktsai · 11-06-2007, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I have long found this a particularly interesting subject.

#1) You can find the same exact same types of so-called prophecy fulfillment scenarios in the writings of most ancient Mediterrenian cultures. Are all of their prophecies true also, meaning that their gods are real too?

#2) Actually, these so-called prophecies do more to discredit these works than anything else, as they demonstrate that they were often written years, sometimes hundreds of years, after when they are traditionally dated to (and note that sometimes even the traditional dates are much older than even the authors themselves indicated)

#3) See my article on the Gospel O Mark, which goes into detail about to so-called "prophecies" of the New Testament, and how they actually provide evidence that the Gospels are completely fabricated.

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...ospel_mark.htm

May also want to read:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar..._history.htm#3

Thanks for the link. The website and articles are incredible! So well thought out and articulated...and on such a difficult subject. I'll definitely finish a more thorough reading when I get more time. Work has been a killer. :notworthy:

ktsai · 11-06-2007, 07:12 PM

Quote:

We have a copy of a seal of Cyrus where he is quoted as explaining in his own official words that he returned the various gods to their original cities and temples by the command of the god Marduk. See http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/meso/cyrus.html. No mention made of Yahweh here, but it seems the biblical authors opted for a bit of "me-too-ism" by assuming or stretching his decree to include them too.

Or maybe they really did equate Marduk with Yahweh?? Suggest that possibility to your friend!

One of the ways of dating a text is to compare its contents with known chronological markers. If a text refers to the Persian king Cyrus then it is reasonable to assume it was not written before the time of Cyrus. Why do some people lose their common sense when the text happens to be phrased as a prophecy? That's not being hyper-sceptical. We apply that standard to nonbiblical prophecies. Why should the bible be entitled to a jettisoning of common sense and rationality?

I took you suggestion and also sent your link. It took forever to get a response to it and finally, I got the classic apologist's response.

"You have two different literature from the same time. One is written by Cyrus the Great and the other is the absolute authority of God. Even you, <my name>, know which is the truth. I pray that the Holy spirit will open your eyes to have a firm belief of the ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY OF OUR LORD GOD'S WORD, THE BIBLE"

I have invited my friend to join and participate in this message board. But after I mentioned the name, he said that he's already "heard" of it. I'm still hoping he will join.

neilgodfrey · 11-07-2007, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktsai

I took you suggestion and also sent your link. It took forever to get a response to it and finally, I got the classic apologist's response.

"You have two different literature from the same time. One is written by Cyrus the Great and the other is the absolute authority of God. Even you, <my name>, know which is the truth. I pray that the Holy spirit will open your eyes to have a firm belief of the ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY OF OUR LORD GOD'S WORD, THE BIBLE"

I have invited my friend to join and participate in this message board. But after I mentioned the name, he said that he's already "heard" of it. I'm still hoping he will join.

Well you can't argue with that. Any god that can outlast another by 2000 or whatever years has to be the winner!

Neil

-Jay- · 11-07-2007, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktsai

I took you suggestion and also sent your link. It took forever to get a response to it and finally, I got the classic apologist's response.

"You have two different literature from the same time. One is written by Cyrus the Great and the other is the absolute authority of God. Even you, <my name>, know which is the truth. I pray that the Holy spirit will open your eyes to have a firm belief of the ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY OF OUR LORD GOD'S WORD, THE BIBLE"

I'm curious how your friend explains how he knows that one is "the absolute authority of God"? Has he read the Bible cover to cover? Does he know how internally incoherent it is? Does he even have the slightest clue how the books that constitute the Bible that we know today were selected (and that there are several version of "the" Bible around the world...)?

Many of the staunchest defenders of the Bible as the inerrant word of God actually have a very poor understanding of what it says or how it came to be.

regards,

NinJay

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11-06-2007, 07:18 AM	#22
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Don't forget that the "History Channel" just devoted a week to Nostradamus, with tons of shows talking about how he has so accurately predicted everything, and claiming that he had such prophetic power, and that the end fo the world must be coming becuase he said so, etc..... This is the world we live in....

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