dongiovanni1976x

Here are the sources I have found to support the case that Tyre was an island city and that the coast was referred to as Usu, Uzu or Ushu.

The historian Josephus (Antiquities 1:53-54) citing a letter to King Solomon from King Hiram of Tyre (mid 10th Cen. BC) mentions that Tyre was “an island”; Oxford Classical Dictionary (Hornblower & Spawforth 3rd etd 1996, p1568) states that Tyre was “built on an island”; International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (Liverani, M., Tyre 1988 G.W. Bromiley, ed., revised, V. 4. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans: pp932-935) and the Online Encyclopedia (http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/TUM_VA...ck_Assyr_.html) state that Uzu/Usu/Ushu was the name of the mainland area on the coast that supplied the island of Tyre with “wood water and burial grounds.”; Also, the ancient Armana Letters, (http://www.ancientcash.info/page-2/Tyrereferences.html) dated well before King Nebuchadnezzar’s time, frequently mention Uzu/Usu/Ushu on the mainland and Tyre on an island or “admidst the sea” just like Ezekiel stated in chapter 28:2, “Mortal say to the prince of Tyre. Thus says the Lord God: Because your heart is proud and you have said, “I am a god; I sit in seat of the gods, in the midst of the seas,”” (KJV; Heb. leb)

http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/TUM_VA...ck_Assyr_.html
"Modern research however, indicates an extensive line of suburbs rather than one mainland city that can be identified with Palaetyrus. This name was given by the Greeks to the settlement on the coast under the mistaken impression that it was more ancient than that on the island; the Assyr. Ushu, frequently mentioned in the Amarna letters, makes it probable that Usu or Uzu was the native name."

Anyone know what evidence Paul Maier (Christian translator of Josephus' Complete Works) used to claim that Josephus was incorrect and that Palaetyrus was the Old City? He mentions something in the footnotes but never cites anything...(just curious)

Jayrok

I agree. It's obvious to me that the authors of these books are talking about earthly Judaic kings, and an earthly sanctification of the nation of Israel.

I don't understand why christians are so gung-ho in trying to prove the Tyre prochecy is fulfilled when these other prophecies are absolutely doomed to fail, if christianity is correct.

If the NT is true and the Jesus story is true, then the latter part of Ezekiel is a false prophecy, period. Then we can refer to Dueteronomy 18.

If Ezekiel's prophecy of God living in Jerusalem and accepts offerings for all time (as also described in Jeremiah 33 as you posted) is true, then the new testament is false, period. There is simply no room for both of these to be correct.

I've spoken with several pastors about this issue, and usually don't get a response. I guess it's not something they want to teach from the pulpit. The only reply I could find on this issue is one that claims Ezekiel's temple is the Millenial kingdom of Christ. It is silly to believe that Jesus would sit on a throne and require animal sacrifices, when Paul clearly claims that Jesus abolished the system with his actions on the cross.

Besides, these same apologists claim that the "prince" in Ezekiel is actually Jesus. well, according to Ezekiel, it is the prince's job to offer the sacrifices. So we have Jesus offering sacrifices for sin atonement in his millenial kingdom.

It's absolutely rediculous.

Johnny Skeptic

Which ancient historians wrote about Alexander's conquest of the island settlement of Tyre?

dongiovanni1976x

Diodorus Siculus 17.40.2-46
Plutarch of Chaeronea 24.3-25.2
Quintus Curtius Rufus 4.2-4
Arrian of Nicomedia 2.15.7-24

But the reason I didn't include them in my earlier post was simply because I was interested in debunking the idea that Palaetyrus on the mainland was older and that the fortified island of Tyre was not founded until after Nebuchadnezzar sacked the "daughter-towns" on the mainland which many conservative christians say fulfilled Ezekiel's prophecy in some way.

yummyfur

Be carefull with the Palaetyrus, I think it is a bad generalization to say the "Greeks" used this name, as the first use of this name is by Strabo in Geography, 16.2.24, who is writing at the begining of the first century CE. So it's not like there is that a long history of "Greeks" using such a name. I would highly reccomend you read the whole section of Strabo, you'll see that Strabo barely mentions Palaetyrus at the very end, after spending several paragraphs on Tyre and Sidon. The mention, is when he starts to describe the physical location of spots as one travels south. Notice how he calls Ornithes a town, but uses no such designation for Palaetyrus. Also 30 stadia is about 3.5 miles, the mainland was originally about .5 miles from the island, but after Alexander built the land bridge this become part of the city, so in reality the mainland was not really any distance from Tyre. 3.5 miles is too far to be really talking about a mainland settlement.

The ancient Ushu is guessed to be located at al-Rashidiyeh, which is actually only 1.5 miles from the center of Tyre(less from the outskirts), and just to add to this discussion, it is currently inhabited, by over 25,000 people, which from an ancient standpoint, is quite a large number of persons.

What's interesting is that the begining of the "Ladder of Tyre" is south of Tyre about this distance, it's possible that Palaetyrus, is a term for this famous terrain, and not really a town at all. Is it possible that the Palai here, is from the Greek pala, and is "Leaps of Tyre", not "Old Tyre"? I think Josephus' usage probably discounts this, and I think the Greek would not be quite right anyways, but it was fun to speculate wildly!.

It's also possible that Strabo is just confused, or that the thirty stadia is the distance from the Litani river to Tyre, which is about right, if that's the case I would really like to see the Greek, it might clear up some of my questions, like maybe Palaetyrus is what Strabo is using for the city of Tyre in general(the part I have questions on are "near Tyre, and after Tyre" and how much of this is actually in the Greek). Unfortunatly, Perseus only has the Greek for books 6-14 of Strabo's Geopgraphy for some unknown reason, whereas they have an English translation of the whole text. Does anyone know of any other online source for the Greek of Book 16 of Geography?

Here is Strabo's qoute:

"Tyre is distant from Sidon not more than two hundred stadia; and between them lies a town called City of Ornithes; and then one comes to a river which empties near Tyre, and after Tyre, to Palae-Tyre, at a distance of thirty stadia. Then one comes to Ptolemaïs, a large city, in earlier times named Acê."

As far as Jospehus, he does use the term Palaetyrus once(Antiquities, Book 9.285), when listing the cities of Tyrians(the kingdom), after the Tyrians revolt against the Assyrians, he lists Sidon, Acre, and Palai Turos as the main cities. It's possible that for Josephus, that Palai Turos is just the name for Tyre in general, because he does not list plain Tyre as a city of the Tyrians. This would suggest something along the lines of the name "The Old City" that is sometimes used for Tyre.

Josephus also talks about the Assyrians taking and guarding the mainland, and it's sources of water during their siege of Tyre, but he does not use the term Palai Turos here, which is strange, if this was in fact the name for the mainland portion.

yummyfur

Quintus Curtius Rufus uses Palaetyrus once

"Legati respondent, esse templum Herculis extra urbem in ea sede, quam Palaetyron ipsi vocent: ibi regem deo sacrum rite facturum."

I couldn't find a translation, and my Latin is very very poor, so maybe someone else can translate.

Josephus tells us that the main temple complex was originally on a seperate island, which during the reign of Hiram was joined to the island on which the city was located. This means that this Temple complex would be regarded as "outside" the city, but this does not mean it is off the island.

MrWhy

At some point in the defence of a prophecy it becomes clear that too much time, text, and detail is necessary. If it takes this much to substantiate, or defend a prophecy, it is very weak.

dongiovanni1976x

Thank you yummyfur for your insight, I enjoyed reading your comments.

Question: Anyone know why in Esarhaddon Prism A (ANET (1969), pp. 290-1) Sidon is mentioned as an island "amidst the sea"? This has been used to discredit the many mentions of Tyre originally being an island "amidst the sea" and that it was simply a catch phrase for a coastal city. Thus strengthening the argument that Tyre was originally founded on the coast. Was this just a generalization, how does one best respond to this objection?



Prism A i (ANET 290-91):
(l am Esarhaddon), the conqueror of Sidon, which lies (on an island) amidst the sea, (he) who has leveled all its urban buildings. I even tore up and cast into the sea its wall and its foundation, destroying (thus) completely the (very) place it (i.e. Sidon) was built (upon). I caught out of the open sea, like a fish, Abdimildutte, its king, who had fled before my attack into the high sea, and I cut off his head... I (then) called together and made all the kings of the country flatti and of the seashore (do corvee-work for me) by making them erect the walls of another [residence] and I called its name Kar-Esarhaddon. I settled therein people from the mountain regions and the sea(shore) of the East, (those) who belonged to me as my share of the booty. I set over them officers of mine as governors. As for Sanduarri, king of Kundi and Sizu, an inveterate enemy... I caught him like a bird in his mountains and (likewise) cut off his head. (Then) I hung the heads of Sanduarri and of Abdimilkutte around the neck of their nobles/chief-officials to demonstrate to the population the power of Ashur, my lord, and paraded (thus) through the wide main street of Nineveh with singers (playing on) summa-harps.

yummyfur

The Taylor prism of Sennacherib (Esarhaddon's father) might help you out here,

"In my third campaign, I went against the Hittite-land. Lulê, king of Sidon, the terrifying splendor of my sovereignty overcame him, and far off into the midst of the sea he fled. There he died. Great Sidon, Little Sidon, Bît-Zitti, Zaribtu, Mahalliba, Ushu, Akzib, Akko, his strong, walled cities, where there were fodder and drink, for his garrisons, the terrors of the weapon of Assur, my lord, overpowered them and they bowed in submission at my feet. I seated Tuba'lu on the royal throne over them, and tribute, gifts for my majesty, I imposed upon him for all time, without ceasing."

It could be the Esarhaddon prism is only refering to the King of Sidon, who died "amidst the sea". Also notice there are two Sidons, though I don't think the various proposed sites for "Little Sidon" are islands either.

Also there is an island associated with Sidon, it has the remains of crusader castle on it, though there are Roman remains as well, it might well have been used for a fortress earlier as well. I guess it's possible this was the Little Sidon mentioned.

Besides, Josephus uses the greek word for island, nesos, not some more euphemistic phrase like "amidst the sea" which is unclear what it means. The Esarhaddon prism also uses "amidst the sea" to describe Cyprus.

yummyfur

Besides the crusader fort island, there is a larger island that protects part of Sidon's harbor, these images and maps from 1951 might help you out.

http://almashriq.hiof.no/general/900...ida-poidebard/