mdarus

That was not quite my point. I was suggesting that the "free ticket" some rely might not be what they think. Of course, the other side is that some who despair of having a ticket might end up just fine.

I think you are right. We (Christians) have not thought through what heaven will be like. We assume things without much evidence. I find it interesting that the Christian view of heaven is similar to the skeptics view of how things should be now. God should be verifiably present now like he promises to be in the Christian's view of heaven. Both agree this will end all doubt and be ultimately fair and loving. I don't think we have any evidence (see note below) for the elimination of free will in heaven. We are pretty sure it is a perfect place but I don't think we know the mechanics of how it stays that way.
Reason is a good thing. Christians would even see it as a gift from God. However, the question we are discussing is asking about God's motivation for not revealing himself more. When we deal with a question of God's motivation, reason might not do much for us. Reason will only answer the question on the assumption that God does what we would do in his place. We would be better off if God would reveal his motivation. This is where the Bible could be helpful if it is, in fact, a record of God's revelation. If the Bible is silent about an issue, I say we need to call our "reason", "speculation" to be honest about it.

nygreenguy

Well, being a (albeit confused) christian, i have wondered this. If in the afterlife, how can god be so sure we will all be "good" Will we even HAVE free will? Adam and Eve had paradise, yet they messed it up. Was it totally satans fault? If so, can we assume humans can remain sinless in the afterlife? If not, then how can the afterlife truly be paradise if we are still capable of sin? Is satan the origionator of sin? If so, then can it be said i have no control over my sins becuase "satan made me do it" I think im beginning to see the many holes in Christianity.

Anat

The Hebrew Bible claims that public relevation has only short-term success in the story of the Golden Calf. 40 days after a major revelation with displays of fire and booming voices they went and worshiped an other deity. (But they did not turn into atheists...)

Viti

Well think about it a minute...if they had no knowledge of good and evil whatesoever, until they ate the fruit, how could they know disobedience was bad (evil)?

Diogenes the Cynic

1. Satan does not appear in the story at all. The serpent was not Satan. It was just a talking snake.

2. Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong until after they ate the fruit, so how could they be blamed for it?

3. There was no Adam and Eve anyway, so hpw could humans inhereit sin from people who never existed?

Gullwind

Its not so much frustration as amazement at the lengths people will go to justify their beliefs. I believe I caught him off guard with that question. I have never heard a Christian respond to the problem of Satan (as the serpent) having sinned first and being in the garden, contrary to Paul's statement that Adam brought sin into the world. The fundamentalist realized that if he admitted Satan had sinned, then it proved that Paul was incorrect. Therefore, Satan couldn't have sinned.

ziffel

From the fundy branch I came from, we were always taught that God's reasoning for creating man, was due to the fact that angels were created more as servants who lacked the capacity to accept or reject God. God created us because he wanted a being with the full ability to choose him, or deny him, and angels didn't cut it.

Regardless of what that passage really means, I think it's almost universally accepted that Lucifer was the the top dog of the angels, and led a third of them in a revolt against God. Thus the being 'cast out' of heaven, and becoming demons or devils or whatever it is they are now.

So, I still believe the fundamental problem for Christians is still there. If angels have free will, why make man? And if a being can know God, see God fully, and still reject him, what does that say for what is supposed to be the most awesome being conceivable?

nygreenguy

Satan is the snake in the story, this is pretty common knowledge. Remember, the bible isnt always literal. Satan is ofter reffered to as a "reptile" of sorts. Well, if you truly have free will, shouldnt you know right from wrong? Or, because there WAS no wrong then, did they not know. either way, Adam was "perfect" and he did something wrong. He knew going against what god said was wrong.

They why even bother to post in the conversation if you think its all hokey. This is obviously directed at people who believe in angels, or those who want to actually contribute.

Julian

No, the Revelation reference is written many centuries after Genesis. Whoever wrote Genesis never intended the snake to be Satan. As I am sure you know, Satan works with God in the OT, i.e. Job. The NT interprets the OT as it sees fit and in a way that generally doesn't reflect the ideas of the original OT writers.
Adam cannot both be perfect and do something wrong. Another pertinent question is, why did God put that tree there within easy reach of two people who didn't know right from wrong? And shouldn't an omniscient God know that they would eat from it? The story just has so many logical holes that one could grow as old as Methuselah listing them all out...

Julian

Amaleq13

It is a common Christian belief but, for those who study the Hebrew Scriptures as an ancient text, it is "common knowledge" that this has been read into the fable which clearly describes the snake as a (talking and possibly walking) snake. That it is described as more "subtil" than any other beast certainly does not require or even suggest that he was something other than an animal.

The ability to choose does not imply or require the knowledge necessary to make the "right" choice.

How could he know the difference between right and wrong before eating of the fruit that provided that knowledge?