enoch007

Ouch

Brother Daniel

To continue Logos's question to James: If you're going to argue that Galileo's troubles were largely political and involved the Pope's fragile ego (as opposed to being (for example) a consistent application of a prior theological commitment on the part of church authorities) then it is only fair to point out that that doesn't get the church off the hook. I would suggest that the mere fact that the Pope felt he had the right to do to Galileo what he did should make Catholics uneasy.

enoch007

I would respectfully disagree, noble Lucretius, only inasmuch as the Title to this thread was "How Dark was the Dark Ages". Now I can understand the traditional meaning of the term arising from a Eurocentric perspective, hence initially defining it, but the study of history has come some way since these terms were coined. In this and other threads I have been enlightened as to controversies about the time span considered "Middle Ages", theories of the belief of the flat earth and other controversies, which on all levels propels new understandings of historical periods and, hence, a re-examination of terminology applied thereto. And one could discuss the works of Tacitus within the context of Chinese Culture on several levels, historicity versus the Saga and Epic in either culture, relative depictions at the time Tacitus wrote vis a vis Chinese writers, the disorders of the Histories versus depictions of Chinese Dynastic struggles, etc.

How dark were the Dark Ages, dark for those in darkness, perhaps, or dark for all who only examine the darkness.

No Robots

The fiasco of the Christological disputes permanently ended any connection the Byzantines may have once had with classical Greek thought, hence their complete lack of scientific development. They are worse than the West, too, because they really lost all sight of the human Christ, who reappears in the East only with Dostoyevsky.

Disbelief in the Trinity was a serious handicap as long as thelogians had control of the political and educational apparatus. The overthrow of the theologians was the work of many courageous individuals. Nowadays, we have new orthodoxies to battle. Does your friend attack evolutionism in the workplace? (Disclaimer: I am not a creationist, but nor am I an evolutionist. For a brief introduction to my position, you can read a couple of quotations from Hegel).

Clivedurdle

James

Methinks you are making various assumptions without the necessary background. You note White on Da Vinci and do not comment that his science was very widely used and paid for by various dukes and kings etc. He had superb weaponry, canal digging machines and much much more. And his backwards writing was not a code - he was dyslexic and it was easier for him!


There has also been a revolution in thinking about the Greeks and the greatest scientist who had worked out calculus and infinity is of course Archimedes.

http://www.archimedespalimpsest.org/

Search here for previous thread on this, also check discussion of Terry Jones Barbarians and Holland Persian Fire - if we are discussing the Chinese - silk was in Rome, we mustn't forget the Persians!

I am having severe doubts about the effects of Islam - I see the looting of Constantinople by Venice as possibly kick starting the renaissance - check GRD Islam renaissance and reformation and also Boris Johnson on Rome. I do see the destruction of the trade roots across the med as very important.

http://matse1.mse.uiuc.edu/concrete/hist.html

Lógos Sokratikós

Right. Remember the first council had an absolutely political shadow over it. That makes the canon of the new testament and the creed suspect.


(of course that has nothing to do with the history of science -sorry for digressing. I need coffee: my brain's hard disk is fragmenting. I'll be back!)

No Robots

You are correct that Islam can be credited for bringing Greek knowledge to Medieval Europe. Once the Germanic peoples got hold of it, it was game over for everybody else.

Lógos Sokratikós

Interesting points. Nevertheless don't you think any chance of scientific flourishing was arrested by mandatory orthodoxy rather than this or that idea that was made orthodox? I mean, where would we be standing today if Newton were mandatory orthodoxy? Food for thought, ey?

Sarpedon

I also think that the barbarians are not quite so 'barbaric' as they are made out to be. I have seen the quality of their crafts. I would tend to blame the collapse of the romans on the romans themselves, the barabarians seem to have picked up what pieces they could. Who can blame them for not wanting to immediately emulate the society that had so recently torn itself apart and collapsed under its own weight?

Clivedurdle

Remember how they spent their time - in prayers, writing hymns over Archimedes works, not thinking.