Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Littlejohn · 10-03-2012, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

The arguments in the book are basically summaries of many of the same arguments repeated many times over in this forum's archives. Ehrman's book is not relevant. Logic, ancient evidence, and plausibility are relevant. Ehrman's book wasn't written for mythicists, anyway. Ehrman's book was written for reasonable people.
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"..Ehrman's book was written for reasonable people..."

I agree too, even though, obviously, do not share the point of view of Ehrman, which looks at the whole aspect from a point of view essentially filoclericale, having not renounced, at least until today, to the basic teaching of the catholic magisterium

Since he is still a firm believer, when research, the serious one, needs of 'throw to the nettle' any bias, any dogma of faith, and be ready to praise even the devil, if criteria are met, it 'goes with its legs' that the conclusions of Erhman, as regards the real characteristics of the historical Jesus, absolutely can not be accepted, though they may appear 'advanced' than those of other scholars of area 'catho-christian'...

However, as regards his diatribe with the mythicist world, I can not to be in disagreement with Bart Ehrman, being convinced of the absolute improbability of the mythicist thesis.

Littlejohn ..S

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proudfootz · 10-05-2012, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

...
Well, like I said, this is just one more fulfilled prediction of HJ and an ad hoc thing for MJ. It would be a problem for HJ if Aramaisms were not contained in the gospels, because all of the central characters and the reputed source of the traditions were Aramaic.

You mean Aramaic-speaking, I assume.

I would think that the prediction of an HJ theory would be that the original gospel[s] were written completely in Aramaic. Finding a few Aramaic words in a Greek narrative is just an attempt to save the theory.

This is the problem with your "predictions." You take the given facts and force them to be "predicted" by your theory.

Quote:

It is about predictive power, the same principle that causes us to accept every probable theory of any sort. MJ, like any improbable theory, merely adapts with a lot of ad hoc speculations and otherwise fails the predictions.

MJ predicts that the earliest sources have only a vague outline of a savior, and that details will be added as story telling develops over time, which is what we see. Later sources "flesh out" the Jesus character, adding a birth story, family, childhood, etc. How does your theory handle this?

I'd agree. It's very odd that there are no early documents about this supposed 1st century AD Jesus in the language supposedly spoken by him and his immediate alleged followers.

From what I understand even the 'gospel' tales used by Aramaic people are simply translations from the original Greek to Aramaic.

This would seem to suggest the rise of what we know as christianity began as a phenomenon of Greek literature.

outhouse · 10-05-2012, 07:50 PM

Quote:

I'd agree. It's very odd that there are no early documents about this supposed 1st century AD Jesus in the language supposedly spoken by him and his immediate alleged followers.

jesus hung out with the poor and illiterate while alive.

he traveled small villages teaching and healing for dinner scraps.

while alive there was nothing to write, nor was he important.

Only after the temple event was he martyred for his fight against the corrupt jewish governement in the temple.

and since his movement failed in judaism, its no wonder we didnt get anything written from the poverty strticken jews he had feeding him dinner scraps.

Only because his temple legend made him famous, did he become a local hero and deified, which caught on with the god-fearers thanks to paul.

outhouse · 10-05-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

This would seem to suggest the rise of what we know as christianity began as a phenomenon of Greek literature.

No it doesnt

romans would never deify a jewish oppressed teacher/healer who lived a life below that of a common peasant, and then write him in traveling around begging for dinner scraps with no money, for spirit removal

hjalti · 10-06-2012, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

None of the many sources about Jesus before the gospel of John claim that Jesus was a deity, not Mark, not Q, not L, not M, not Acts, not Paul. They portray Jesus as a human being.

Wait a minute! According to Ehrman the pre-pauline tradition in Philippians portrays Jesus as a pre-existing angel(/god)!

proudfootz · 10-06-2012, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

I'd agree. It's very odd that there are no early documents about this supposed 1st century AD Jesus in the language supposedly spoken by him and his immediate alleged followers.

jesus hung out with the poor and illiterate while alive.

he traveled small villages teaching and healing for dinner scraps.

while alive there was nothing to write, nor was he important.

Only after the temple event was he martyred for his fight against the corrupt jewish governement in the temple.

and since his movement failed in judaism, its no wonder we didnt get anything written from the poverty strticken jews he had feeding him dinner scraps.

Only because his temple legend made him famous, did he become a local hero and deified, which caught on with the god-fearers thanks to paul.

So Jesus became a hero among poor Aramaic people and ergo only rich Greek-speaking people wrote about him?

That's an interesting 'take'.

proudfootz · 10-06-2012, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

This would seem to suggest the rise of what we know as christianity began as a phenomenon of Greek literature.

No it doesnt

romans would never deify a jewish oppressed teacher/healer who lived a life below that of a common peasant, and then write him in traveling around begging for dinner scraps with no money, for spirit removal

It was my understanding that it wasn't only the Romans who spoke Greek.

Didn't you just agree earlier that there could be no written Aramaic tales about Jesus?

ApostateAbe · 10-06-2012, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hjalti

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

None of the many sources about Jesus before the gospel of John claim that Jesus was a deity, not Mark, not Q, not L, not M, not Acts, not Paul. They portray Jesus as a human being.

Wait a minute! According to Ehrman the pre-pauline tradition in Philippians portrays Jesus as a pre-existing angel(/god)!

Feel free to make an argument!

hjalti · 10-06-2012, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by hjalti

Wait a minute! According to Ehrman the pre-pauline tradition in Philippians portrays Jesus as a pre-existing angel(/god)!

Feel free to make an argument!

If one reads Ehrman's book carefully, instead of "glazing over it", one can see that in his discussion of the Carmen Christi, Ehrman says that it's probably describing Jesus as a "preexistent angelic being". A god by any other name would still smell as sweet

outhouse · 10-06-2012, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

jesus hung out with the poor and illiterate while alive.

he traveled small villages teaching and healing for dinner scraps.

while alive there was nothing to write, nor was he important.

Only after the temple event was he martyred for his fight against the corrupt jewish governement in the temple.

and since his movement failed in judaism, its no wonder we didnt get anything written from the poverty strticken jews he had feeding him dinner scraps.

Only because his temple legend made him famous, did he become a local hero and deified, which caught on with the god-fearers thanks to paul.

So Jesus became a hero among poor Aramaic people and ergo only rich Greek-speaking people wrote about him?

That's an interesting 'take'.

did jesus movement succeed in judaism, or in roman communities

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