Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kapyong · 12-25-2012, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Ten heavens!!! You are way off.

You just like to disagree any chance you get. I think you get a kick out of it.

Sure, some said there were 365, but that is hardly the dominant view, is it ?

Consider this pasage from the same Panarion :

2:3 But her son has ruled the seventh heaven with a sort of insolence, and tyrannically. To the ones below him he says, 'I am the first and I am the last, and there is none other God beside me.'11

Kapyong

tanya · 12-26-2012, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It is clear that Paul does not represent the 1st century but was alive sometime well into the 2nd century or later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

My bet is later. The letter exchange between Paul and Seneca was forged in the 4th century.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It appears to me that many of the bogus writings from the Church writers may have been composed far later than originally thought.

Apparently the following was written in 248 CE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Origen, Kata Kelsou, chapter 47

Paul ,a genuine disciple of Jesus ,says that he regarded this James as a brother of the Lord ,not so much on account of their relationship by blood, or of their being brought up together, as because of his virtue and doctrine.

Roger Pearse's excellent web site lists extant manuscripts of this text.

aa5874 · 12-26-2012, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Ten heavens!!! You are way off.

You just like to disagree any chance you get. I think you get a kick out of it.

Sure, some said there were 365, but that is hardly the dominant view, is it ?

Consider this pasage from the same Panarion :

2:3 But her son has ruled the seventh heaven with a sort of insolence, and tyrannically. To the ones below him he says, 'I am the first and I am the last, and there is none other God beside me.'11

Kapyong

You have NO actual evidence of the "dominant view". When did people believe there were there were 365 heavens?? And how many???

aa5874 · 12-26-2012, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It is clear that Paul does not represent the 1st century but was alive sometime well into the 2nd century or later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

My bet is later. The letter exchange between Paul and Seneca was forged in the 4th century.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It appears to me that many of the bogus writings from the Church writers may have been composed far later than originally thought.

Apparently the following was written in 248 CE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Origen, Kata Kelsou, chapter 47

Paul ,a genuine disciple of Jesus ,says that he regarded this James as a brother of the Lord ,not so much on account of their relationship by blood, or of their being brought up together, as because of his virtue and doctrine.

Roger Pearse's excellent web site lists extant manuscripts of this text.

Again, we do NOT have an original manuscript of "Against Celsus" from c 248 CE.

It is most remarkable that you question the time of authorship of Justin yet readily accept that of Origen.

Even the Church and its writers claimed the writings of Origen were manipulated.

It is also claimed Origen taught that Lying was acceptable to be a Excellent Teacher.

Jerome's "Apology Against Rufinus"

Quote:

From all this it is evident that if we speak falsely with any other object than that of obtaining by it some great good, we shall be judged as the enemies of him who said, I am the truth.

This Origen wrote, and none of us can deny it. And he wrote it in the book which he addressed to the 'perfect,' his own disciples.

His teaching is that the master may lie, but the disciple must not.

The inference from this is that the man who is a good liar, and without hesitation sets before his brethren any fabrication which rises into his mouth, shows himself to be an excellent teacher.

The writings of the Church are buried in "miles" of forgeries and Lies.

Please, present the original manuscripts of any writings of Origen from c 248 CE that mention Paul.

You won't find any.

There are NONE.

Roger Pearse · 12-26-2012, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Roger Pearse's excellent web site lists extant manuscripts of this text.

Thank you for the kind words. There is also a 7th century papyrus, found at Toura in Egypt in 1941, which I was unaware of when I wrote that page. It says that it was corrected against Origen's autograph.

http://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/2...contra-celsum/

James The Least · 12-26-2012, 05:09 PM

Forty-six different "heresies." Makes you wonder if most of these sects had any idea that these things were being written ... and if so, why they didn't write "Panarions" of their own. Perhaps this just circulated like porn among Christian bishops only.

Quote:

SECTION 1

1. Epiphanius On Barbarism Being an account of the pre-Noachian sect
2. Epiphanius On the Scythianism Being an account of the sect after Noah from Scythia
3. Epiphanius On Hellenism Being an account of the sect from Serug onwards
4. Epiphanius On Judaism Being an account of the followers of Judah
5. Epiphanius Against the Stoics Being an account of that sect
6. Epiphanius On the Platonists Being an account of the followers of Plato
7. Epiphanius On the Pythagoraeans Being an account of the followers of Pythagoras
8. Epiphanius On the Epicureans Being an account of the followers of Epicurius
(cont'd)

Epiphanius On Judaism Being an account of the Jews
9. Epiphanius Against the Samaritans Being an account of that sect
10. Epiphanius Against the Essenes Being an account of that sect
11. Epiphanius Against the Sebuaeans Being an account of that sect
12. Epiphanius Against the Gorothenes Being an account of that sect
13. Epiphanius Against the Dositheans Being an account of that sect
14. Epiphanius Against the Sadducees Being an account of that sect
15. Epiphanius Against the Scribes Being an account of the legislators
16. Epiphanius Against the Pharisees Being an account of those who set themselves apart
17. Epiphanius Against the Hemerobaptists Being an account of the baptizers
18. Epiphanius Against the Nasaraeans Being an account of that sect
19. Epiphanius Against the Ossaeans Being an account of that sect
20. Epiphanius Against the Herodians Being an account of the followers of Herod
(cont'd)

On Incarnation
V. Anacephalaeosis II
SECTION 2

21. Epiphanius Against the Simonians Being an account of the followers of Simon Magus
22. Epiphanius Against Menander Being an account of that heretic
23. Epiphanius Against Satornilus Being an account of that heretic
24. Epiphanius Against Basilides Being an account of the Gnostic Basilides
25. Epiphanius Against the Nicolaitans Being an account of the followers of Nicolai
26. Epiphanius Against the Gnostics Being an account of these heretics in general, and their so-called Gospel of Eve
27. Epiphanius Against the Carpocratians Being an account of the followers of Carpocrates
28. Epiphanius Against the Cerinthians Being an account of the followers of Cerinthus
29. Epiphanius Against the Nazoraeans Being an account of that sect
30. Epiphanius Against the Ebionites Being an account of the followers of Ebion
31. Epiphanius Against the Valentinians Being an account of the followers of Valentinus
32. Epiphanius Against the Secundians Being an account of that sect
33. Epiphanius Against the Ptolemaeans Being an account of the followers of Ptolemy, containing also his Letter to Flora
VI. Anacephalaeosis III
SECTION 3

34. Epiphanius Against the Marcosians Being an account of the followers of Marcus
35. Epiphanius Against the Colorbasians Being an account of that sect
36. Epiphanius Against the Heracleonites Being an account of the followers of Heracleon
37. Epiphanius Against the Ophites Being an account of the worshippers of the serpent
38. Epiphanius Against the Cainites Being an account of the followers of Cain
39. Epiphanius Against the Sethians Being an account of the followers of Seth
40. Epiphanius Against the Archontics Being an account of that sect
41. Epiphanius Against the Cerdonians Being an account of the followers of Cerdonus
42. Epiphanius Against the Marcionites Being an account of the followers of Marcion, and the errors of his gospel
43. Epiphanius Against the Lucianists Being an account of the followers of Lucian
44. Epiphanius Against the Apelleans Being an account of the followers of Apelles
45. Epiphanius Against the Severians Being an account of the followers of Severus
46. Epiphanius Against the Tatianists

Duvduv · 12-26-2012, 06:34 PM

With that many "heresies" written about, and with the monopoly of control of the empire, it is still incredible that absolutely NOTHING remained from most of these sects. Then there is the possibility that most of them never even existed in the first place, and were the fanciful creation of the authorities in establishing the "authenticity" of the official creed and sect.

aa5874 · 12-26-2012, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

Forty-six different "heresies." Makes you wonder if most of these sects had any idea that these things were being written ... and if so, why they didn't write "Panarions" of their own. Perhaps this just circulated like porn among Christian bishops only...

There was no such thing as orthodoxy in Christianity before the Roman Church. Again, we have evidence against Irenaeus "Against Heresies".

mountainman · 12-26-2012, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It is clear that Paul does not represent the 1st century but was alive sometime well into the 2nd century or later.

My bet is later. The letter exchange between Paul and Seneca was forged in the 4th century.

The Paul/Seneca letter was forged in the 4th century??? Why so early??

That is what the consensus of scholarship which I have examined appear to think. This fact appears reasonably certain. It is NOT my idea but I agree with it.

Quote:

Are you aware that the Donation of Constantine was written hundreds of years after the 4th century??

Of course I do because the forgery mill operated for many centuries after it was commissioned and set in motion. Do I need to repeat that the real question is when was the forgery mill first commissioned. I just in don't buy the dogma that the new and strange testament is early.

mountainman · 12-26-2012, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

Thanks Pete,

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

These two books were:
(1) The Panarion of this Epiphanius heresiologist authored later 4th century and

Well, I sure hope Volume II makes it online soon.

Me too. I cant wait to see the reaction to Epiphanius's quoting of the Greater Questions of Mary, in which the Jesus character gets to have explicit sex (according to Erhman).

PS: note that it is already in the first part here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPIPHANIUS

8:2 For in the so-called 'Greater Questions of Mary'—there are also 'Lesser' ones forged by them—they claim that he reveals it to her after taking her aside on the mountain, praying, producing a woman from his side, beginning to have sex with her, and then partaking of his emission, if you please, to show that 'Thus we must do, that we may live.'

8:3 And when Mary was alarmed and fell to the ground, he raised her up and said to her, 'O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?'

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

(2) The Law Codex of Theodosius from the 5th century giving retrospective account of imperial laws back to the age of Constantine.

That would be very handy book indeed, I didn't realise it was not available, I think I have a book with some excerpts somewhere packed away.

I have some extracts here:

http://www.mountainman.com.au/essene...eodosianus.htm

Sample ....

Quote:

321 CE ..

16.2.4 "At death, people shall have the right to leave property to the Church."

It's a [edit] racket.

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12-26-2012, 06:34 PM	#17
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	With that many "heresies" written about, and with the monopoly of control of the empire, it is still incredible that absolutely NOTHING remained from most of these sects. Then there is the possibility that most of them never even existed in the first place, and were the fanciful creation of the authorities in establishing the "authenticity" of the official creed and sect.

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