Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dr lazer blast · 07-08-2008, 07:14 AM

thats what i've been saying. The fact that there were so many people that witnessed the event, the mixture of skeptics believers and unbelievers and the professor of natural science there rules out the mass hysteria option. Saying it is mass hysteria is a baseless assertion and its a logical fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

Trout · 07-08-2008, 07:32 AM

Anyone else ever notice how these wild n crazy "miracles" always seem to occur in areas populated by often undereducated religious folks to begin with? Where has the sun done the two step over a major world city or hey, maybe even an observatory?

Excuse me while I go find a village of illiterate Mexicans who see jesus in a buritto.

Keith&Co. · 07-08-2008, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdejess

I say:

But those phenomena occurred objectively; the problem then in the impossibility of examining through digging into a phenomenum inside out and upside down is interpreting it as to render it of mundane everyday contingency, like mass hallucination.

Tell me in fewer words what exactly you find unacceptable for yourself in what I say above.

I already said that i wasn't sure if i understood what you said in that statement, and what i 'thought' you were trying to say, and responded to that.

If there's a problem in understanding, just repeating yourself isn't going to improve the transfer of information.

Is there any chance that you could restate it in English?

Meatros · 07-08-2008, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

The Shroud was carbon dated to the 14th Century in the 80's.

have you done any recent research on the shroud?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_turin

Quote:

However, the 2008 research at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit may revise the 1260–1390 dating toward which it originally contributed, leading its director Christopher Ramsey to call the scientific community to probe anew the authenticity of the Shroud

Recent research and stuidies state that the 14th century dating of the shroud was recalled.

I'm sorry, but it's a fraud and it's quite easy to tell it's a fraud. In fact, your link even demostrates it:

Quote:

Further evidence for the Shroud as an art object comes from what might be called the "Mercator projection" argument. The shroud in two dimensions presents a three-dimensional image projected onto a planar (two-dimensional) surface, just as in a photograph or painting. This perspective is consistent with both painting and image formation using a bas relief.[47] A true burial shroud would have rested nearly cylindrically across the three-dimensional facial surface, if not more irregularly. The result would be an unnatural lateral distortion, a strong widening to the sides, in contrast to the kind of normal photographic image a beholder would expect, let alone the strongly vertically elongated image on the Shroud fabric.

This argument is disputed by the paper presented at [9]PDF (385 KiB). Essentially, distortions can be small if the Shroud was not lying tight against the body. It is not explained, however, how the shroud could have gotten the details of the face if it wasn't lying tight against the body.

Philosoft · 07-08-2008, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

thats what i've been saying. The fact that there were so many people that witnessed the event, the mixture of skeptics believers and unbelievers and the professor of natural science there rules out the mass hysteria option.

It seems problematic to rule out a charge of mass hysteria by appealing to the quantity of witnesses.

Quote:

Saying it is mass hysteria is a baseless assertion and its a logical fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

Post hoc fallacies arise when two events are causally linked by temporal proximity alone. So, no, the suggested attribution is not a post hoc fallacy.

Keith&Co. · 07-08-2008, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philosoft

It seems problematic to rule out a charge of mass hysteria by appealing to the quantity of witnesses.

Ohminothing. I may put that on a t-shirt. :notworthy::notworthy:

Anduin · 07-08-2008, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

Quote:

The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood type, AB, which is also the same blood type found on the Shroud of Turin and all other Eucharistic Miracles.

No blood has been found on the Shroud of Turin. You must be reading Catholic propaganda.

Anduin · 07-08-2008, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

the article is not incorrect. Considering the fact that it was predicted, and the number of people that witnessed the event along with a couple of other factors, all rule out mass hysteria. How can you definitively prove that it didn't happen?, thats what I'd like to know.

Errr... because nobody else in the world saw that the Sun moved? You may not be aware of this, but the sun is a star located 8 light/minutes away from us. The Earth revolves around the sun, not the other way round. If something happened to the Sun, it would be seen by the entire planet, and the gravitational effect of the star called Sol moving around would have hurled the entire Solar System away. As none of these things happened, it is a very safe assumption to say that the Sun did not move that day. So, other explanations must be found. Mass hysteria is the best explanation so far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

Also the shroud of turnin has not been definitively proven to be a fake so I don't know where that came from either, furthermore it is not only the shroud of turnin but other alleged miracles as well match the blood type.

It has been proven to be a fake by 3 independent lab studies conducted in 1988, which all dated the Shroud to around 1350.

Reason · 07-08-2008, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trout

Anyone else ever notice how these wild n crazy "miracles" always seem to occur in areas populated by often undereducated religious folks to begin with? Where has the sun done the two step over a major world city or hey, maybe even an observatory?

Excuse me while I go find a village of illiterate Mexicans who see jesus in a buritto.

Ditto for "healing miracles"--always in some African bush villiage and witnessed by only the missionaries and their cohorts, none of which ever seem to have a video camera.

Trout · 07-08-2008, 08:46 AM

OK, god if you're up there please turn off the telly for a bit and listen up.

If you really want us all to eat our words, bow down to you or whatever then hows about at say.....maybe 6:00 tomorrow evening you make the sun dance around the sky for everyone to see all over the world just like before? If you really want to be convincing how about also making it rain frogs like in the OT days and maybe say in a really loud voice "I'm the real god so everyone better get to church come Sunday".

Cause y'know I'd really appreciate some clarity here and really can't figure out why you keep appearing to the littled ragged people you've already got in your back pocket. I mean they're already on your team after all right?

Oh and hey, if that's too much during summer vacation how about just letting the Leafs win the cup this year? That should totally convert Toronto at least.

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07-08-2008, 07:14 AM	#31
dr lazer blast Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: charleston sc Posts: 1,622	thats what i've been saying. The fact that there were so many people that witnessed the event, the mixture of skeptics believers and unbelievers and the professor of natural science there rules out the mass hysteria option. Saying it is mass hysteria is a baseless assertion and its a logical fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

07-08-2008, 07:32 AM	#32
Trout Contributor Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: the north Posts: 12,935	Anyone else ever notice how these wild n crazy "miracles" always seem to occur in areas populated by often undereducated religious folks to begin with? Where has the sun done the two step over a major world city or hey, maybe even an observatory? Excuse me while I go find a village of illiterate Mexicans who see jesus in a buritto.

07-08-2008, 08:46 AM	#40
Trout Contributor Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: the north Posts: 12,935	OK, god if you're up there please turn off the telly for a bit and listen up. If you really want us all to eat our words, bow down to you or whatever then hows about at say.....maybe 6:00 tomorrow evening you make the sun dance around the sky for everyone to see all over the world just like before? If you really want to be convincing how about also making it rain frogs like in the OT days and maybe say in a really loud voice "I'm the real god so everyone better get to church come Sunday". Cause y'know I'd really appreciate some clarity here and really can't figure out why you keep appearing to the littled ragged people you've already got in your back pocket. I mean they're already on your team after all right? Oh and hey, if that's too much during summer vacation how about just letting the Leafs win the cup this year? That should totally convert Toronto at least.

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