Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 03-13-2013, 12:40 AM

Jake,

Here is some detective hunting for all of us. There is a lot which is curious about this passage. Megethius the Marcionite begins by acknowledging that Paul wrote the gospel but doesn't answer the question if he was present at the crucifixion. The accusation that Adamantius is of Socrates is unusual too. Pretty translates it "You gave me a name, but actually I am called a follower of Christ, and there are some here who are called 'followers of Socrates' (= Swkratianoi). Very similar in construction to the otherwise unusual 'Christianoi' i.e. Latinized Greek.

Who is this 'Socrates'? Adamantius's response is even more unusual. It is literally "I refuse the name of Socrates for I do not know who he is." This cannot be the Socrates of Plato as Pretty explains "From the use of the present tense, however, it is just possible that Adamantius thinks Megethius is referring to a Socrates alive in his own day of whom he has not heard." Who is this Socrates whom the Marcionite understands to be the founder of the Catholic tradition?

stephan huller · 03-13-2013, 12:49 AM

Kenji makes pretty much the same observation about the uniqueness and unusual nature of the Latinized form:

Quote:

Die eigentlich lateinische Wortbildung Swkratianoi kommt in der griechischen Literatur m.W. sonst nicht vor. PRETTY hat dabei auf das sprachliche tertium comparationis zwischen Christianoi und Sokratianoi aufmerksam gemacht, nämlich die Endung auf -ianos. Da die beiden Begriffe jedoch weder kontrastiert noch parallelisiert werden (s.o.) kommt dieser Hinweis nicht richtig zum Tragen. Die Form Swkratianos an sich könnte allerdings in der Tat eine Nachbildung von Christianos gewesen sein, mit der man die mißverständliche Form Sokratianoi vermeiden wollte http://books.google.com/books?id=9s9...e86%22&f=false

The reality is however that the -ian suffix appears pretty regularly in the earliest heresiology texts.

stephan huller · 03-13-2013, 12:51 AM

It may very well be that the Marcionites thought that a man named Socrates was the founder of the Catholic tradition and he was still alive at the time the original text behind the Dialogue was written. Ehrhardt apparently thought that the name 'Palutian' was somehow scrubbed from the text and replaced with Socrates http://books.google.com/books?id=At3...ian%22&f=false

jakejonesiv · 03-13-2013, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

FWIW. The material in 1 Corinthians 1:12 is odd. Let's look at the passage:

Quote:

Now this I say that every one of you saith I am of Paul and I of Apollos and I of Cephas and I of Christ. Is Christ divided was Paul crucified for you or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Looking at the section I can't help but wonder if the references to Apollos and Cephas et al were added later:

Quote:

Now this I say that every one of you saith I am of Paul and I of Apollos and I of Cephas and I of Christ. Is Christ divided was Paul crucified for you or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

I don't know if this is the correct 'original version.' But something is unusual about the language in this section. It just doesn't feel real for me.

Perhaps it is a riff on known second century sects:

of Paul=Marcionite, of Apollos=Appelles, of Christ=Cerinthus and Cephas=Catholic. :huh:

Toto · 03-13-2013, 01:04 AM

Some digressions and hobby horse riding have been split off here

stephan huller · 03-13-2013, 07:09 AM

I think I found a reference to this 'Socrates' - he may be the figure called the 'stranger' (= peregrinus) in Lucian's text. Three references:

Quote:

I asked a bystander, “What is the meaning of his talk about fire, and what have Heracles and Empedocles to do with Proteus?” “Before long,” he replied, Proteus is going to burn himself up at the Olympic festival.” “How,” said I, “and why?” Then he undertook to tell me, but the Cynic was bawling, so that it was impossible to hear anyone else. I listened, therefore, while he flooded us with the rest of his bilge-water and got off a lot of amazing hyperbole about - Proteus, for, not deigning to compare him with the man of Sinope, or his teacher Antisthenes, or even with Socrates himself, he summoned Zeus to the lists. Then, however, he decided to keep them about equal, and thus concluded his speech: “These are the two noblest masterpieces that the world has seen—the Olympian Zeus, and Proteus; of the one, the creator and artist was Phidias, of the other, Nature. But now this holy image is about to depart from among men to gods, borne on the wings of fire, leaving us bereft.” [5,6]

"Then at length Proteus was apprehended for this and thrown into prison, which itself gave him no little reputation as an asset for his future career and the charlatanism and notoriety-seeking that he was enamoured of. Well, when he had been imprisoned, the Christians, regarding the incident as a calamity, left nothing undone in the effort to rescue him Then, as this was impossible, every other form of attention was shown him, not in any casual way but with assiduity, and from the very break of day aged widows and orphan children could be seen waiting near the prison, while their officials even slept inside with him after bribing the guards. Then elaborate meals were brought in, and sacred books of theirs were read aloud, and excellent Peregrinus—for he still went by that name—was called by them 'the new Socrates. Indeed, people came even from the cities in Asia, sent by the Christians at their common expense, to succour and defend and encourage the hero. [12, 13]

The Cynics stood about the pyre, not weeping, to be sure, but silently evincing a certain amount of grief as they gazed into the fire, until my gorge rose at them, and I said, "Let us go away, you simpletons. It is not an agreeable spectacle to look at an old man who has been roasted, getting our nostrils filled with a villanous reek. Or are you waiting for a painter to come and picture you as the companions of Socrates in prison are portrayed beside him?" They were indignant and reviled me, and several even took to their sticks. Then, when I threatened to gather up a few of them and throw them into the fire, so that they might follow their master, they checked themselves and kept the peace. [37]

It would make sense for the Marcionite to know this figure of 'Socrates' because - as I have shown elsewhere - 'the man of Pontus' was none other than their master Marcion.

aa5874 · 03-13-2013, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

There is a lot more to the Simon-Paul connection than meets the eye at first glance...

There is a lot more connection to Simon=Jesus--Not Paul.

1. Simon was regarded as a God--Jesus was the Son of God.

2. Simon did Mighty Acts--Jesus did Mighty Acts

3. Simon claimed he would Not Die--Jesus claimed he would resurrect on the third day.

4. Simon's followers were called Christians--the followers of Jesus were called Christians.

Justin's First Apology

Quote:

There was a Samaritan, Simon, a native of the village called Gitto, who in the reign of Claudius Caesar, and in your royal city of Rome, did mighty acts of magic, by virtue of the art of the devils operating in him. He was considered a god....... He persuaded those who adhered to him that they should never die.......All who take their opinions from these men, are.....called Christians

It must never be forgotten that Paul ADMITTED he was a Persecutor of the Faith.

It must not be forgotten that Paul claimed he received Revelations AFTER Jesus was dead, buried and resurrected.

It must not be forgotten that Paul ADMITTED he was the LAST after over 500 people to be seen of the Resurrected Jesus.

The Jesus story MUST Predate Paul.

Paul cannot be the Persecutor and also the originator of the Jesus character or story.

Simon Magus was NOT a persecutor--Paul was.

There is hardly any connection between Simon and Paul.

andrewcriddle · 03-13-2013, 01:08 PM

It is just possible that the followers of Bardesanes were known by their opponents as followers of Socrates because of their use of the Socratic dialogue form to present their ideas.

See Early Christianity Outside the Roman Empire

(The ideas of Bardesanes and followers play an important role in Adamantius' work.)

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 03-13-2013, 01:51 PM

FWIW I think we are still looking for someone named 'Socrates.'

maryhelena · 03-13-2013, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

There is a lot more to the Simon-Paul connection than meets the eye at first glance...

There is a lot more connection to Simon=Jesus--Not Paul.

1. Simon was regarded as a God--Jesus was the Son of God.

2. Simon did Mighty Acts--Jesus did Mighty Acts

3. Simon claimed he would Not Die--Jesus claimed he would resurrect on the third day.

4. Simon's followers were called Christians--the followers of Jesus were called Christians.

Justin's First Apology

Quote:

There was a Samaritan, Simon, a native of the village called Gitto, who in the reign of Claudius Caesar, and in your royal city of Rome, did mighty acts of magic, by virtue of the art of the devils operating in him. He was considered a god....... He persuaded those who adhered to him that they should never die.......All who take their opinions from these men, are.....called Christians

It must never be forgotten that Paul ADMITTED he was a Persecutor of the Faith.

It must not be forgotten that Paul claimed he received Revelations AFTER Jesus was dead, buried and resurrected.

It must not be forgotten that Paul ADMITTED he was the LAST after over 500 people to be seen of the Resurrected Jesus.

The Jesus story MUST Predate Paul.

Paul cannot be the Persecutor and also the originator of the Jesus character or story.

Simon Magus was NOT a persecutor--Paul was.

There is hardly any connection between Simon and Paul.

The Pauline writer = Simon Magus theory hits the dust......:thumbs:

The Simon Magus story has more connections with the Jesus story than connections with the Pauline writer.

And, now that I think about it - perhaps the Simon Magus story has echoes of that other magic Jesus type figure in the Toledot Yeshu - alongside a Queen Helene........:constern01:

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03-13-2013, 12:40 AM	#31
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Jake, Here is some detective hunting for all of us. There is a lot which is curious about this passage. Megethius the Marcionite begins by acknowledging that Paul wrote the gospel but doesn't answer the question if he was present at the crucifixion. The accusation that Adamantius is of Socrates is unusual too. Pretty translates it "You gave me a name, but actually I am called a follower of Christ, and there are some here who are called 'followers of Socrates' (= Swkratianoi). Very similar in construction to the otherwise unusual 'Christianoi' i.e. Latinized Greek. Who is this 'Socrates'? Adamantius's response is even more unusual. It is literally "I refuse the name of Socrates for I do not know who he is." This cannot be the Socrates of Plato as Pretty explains "From the use of the present tense, however, it is just possible that Adamantius thinks Megethius is referring to a Socrates alive in his own day of whom he has not heard." Who is this Socrates whom the Marcionite understands to be the founder of the Catholic tradition?

03-13-2013, 12:51 AM	#33
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	It may very well be that the Marcionites thought that a man named Socrates was the founder of the Catholic tradition and he was still alive at the time the original text behind the Dialogue was written. Ehrhardt apparently thought that the name 'Palutian' was somehow scrubbed from the text and replaced with Socrates http://books.google.com/books?id=At3...ian%22&f=false

03-13-2013, 01:04 AM	#35
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Some digressions and hobby horse riding have been split off here

03-13-2013, 01:08 PM	#38
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	It is just possible that the followers of Bardesanes were known by their opponents as followers of Socrates because of their use of the Socratic dialogue form to present their ideas. See Early Christianity Outside the Roman Empire (The ideas of Bardesanes and followers play an important role in Adamantius' work.) Andrew Criddle

03-13-2013, 01:51 PM	#39
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	FWIW I think we are still looking for someone named 'Socrates.'

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