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Old 06-21-2008, 11:04 PM   #41
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I have a sort of general question about the people known as "The Jews" and who the hell they are.

Is there any evidence other than the Bible that a people known as the Jews ruled the land of Israel thousands of years ago.

Is there any evidence, other than the Bible, that "Jews" were "owed" Israel in the 1940s when they were given back "their" land? Did Great Britain and the US and the decision makers who decided to give Israel to the Jews, make this decision based solely upon the Bible?

Previously I took it for granted that the Jews were displaced and that they had a right to "their" land. And that at least they are an ally to the US in a volatile, fundamentalist Muslim ran area. Recently, I reasoned that it is time to stop making assumptions.

Even if "Jews" once ruled Israel a few thousand years ago they are no more "owed" their land than any other peoples who were conquered hundreds, or thousands of years ago.

Also, are caucasian European "Jews" who migrated to Israel, even genetic descendants to the original Jews in the first place?
A Jewish professor has addressed this same question and I have posted details and link under the title "An Invention Called 'The Jewish People'".

In response to the OP, The Bible Unearthed by Finkelstein and Silberman has been mentioned, but I found that that work failed to respond to the logical problems raised by Philip Davies a decade earlier. The book is fine as far as the pre-Judah Kingdom period goes, but then it goes into fantasy. Maybe the political climate in Israel is such that these authors have to draw the line somewhere within the parameters of the Bible.


Bible Unearthed
assumes face-value veracity of the self-testimony of the story about King Joash and the Deuteronomist literature. This is the authors' starting point for interpreting the archaeological evidence. Yet Davies long before showed just how implausible that story is. I summarized his argument somewhere else thus:

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The other presumed historical period was the discovery of "a book of the covenant" in the Jerusalem Temple that led to the reforms of King Josiah. The only evidence that such a book was ever discovered and that this king ever existed or enacted these reforms is the story itself found in 2 Kings 22-23. The whole point of this story is to explain to the reader that if the laws of book of the covenant had been obeyed then the nation of Judah would never have gone into Babylonian captivity. Furthermore, 2 Kings appears to be strongly influenced by the ideas and language and style found in the book of Deuteronomy, and the book of the covenant in this story is described in a way that makes it look very much like it was really the Book of Deuteronomy in the Old Testament. The whole story looks like an attempt to make the book of Deuteronomy appear to have been known in ancient times and to have had authority. In the story good King Josiah is conveniently killed after enacting the laws of Deuteronomy and all his good work is undone by his successors.

Thus alas! the book was unknown both before after Josiah's time, at least until the time the story was written. It looks very much as if the whole story was written to make a much later book look ancient and requiring obedience to its laws.

If such a story as this were found anywhere except in the Bible it would simply lack credibility. Readers would assume it was a fable.

But let's suppose the story really were true and stop and think about it. Can we imagine an ancient king really using Deuteronomy as his new book of laws. Deuteronomy has only one chapter with commanding a king what to do. (He must not get horses from Egypt and must spend day and night reading the book, etc.) Some scholars have argued that Deuteronomy was actually written at the time of King Josiah, but if this is so it is hard to understand why it has so few commands for kings at a time when kings had all authority over virtually all the activities of their kingdoms. But let's suppose one king really did decide to give up all his ways and begin to rule entirely by the rules of this book. Can we really imagine the many other powerful individuals and groups in the kingdom, those who owed their powers and status to the king, can we imagine them also calmly stepping aside and allowing their king to do this? Possible maybe, but highly improbable.
If the story of King Joash is founded on sand, then the whole premise of the origin of "biblical Israel and Judah" in Bible Unearthed rests on sand.

FWIW, I have summarized the archaeological evidence for the kingdom of Israel -- and still have to complete this website -- and the whole notion of the "racial entities" that inhabited the land, and linked it all in this post In Search of Ancient Israel.

Also a post on the 10+ different meanings of the word "Israel" as used in the biblical lit.

Okay, all the links are on me own blog, but it's a fav topic of mine!

N
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:46 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by SkepticBoyLee View Post
I have a sort of general question about the people known as "The Jews" and who the hell they are.

Is there any evidence other than the Bible that a people known as the Jews ruled the land of Israel thousands of years ago.

Is there any evidence, other than the Bible, that "Jews" were "owed" Israel in the 1940s when they were given back "their" land? Did Great Britain and the US and the decision makers who decided to give Israel to the Jews, make this decision based solely upon the Bible?

Previously I took it for granted that the Jews were displaced and that they had a right to "their" land. And that at least they are an ally to the US in a volatile, fundamentalist Muslim ran area. Recently, I reasoned that it is time to stop making assumptions.

Even if "Jews" once ruled Israel a few thousand years ago they are no more "owed" their land than any other peoples who were conquered hundreds, or thousands of years ago.

Also, are caucasian European "Jews" who migrated to Israel, even genetic descendants to the original Jews in the first place?
A Jewish professor has addressed this same question and I have posted details and link under the title "An Invention Called 'The Jewish People'".
You refer to this book as citing a 'fact' that 'there never was a Jewish people'. This is obviously false. There is now a Jewish people and there has been a Jewish people for many centuries.

It is true that it is not historically established when and how the Jewish people originated. But exactly the same is true of nearly every ethnic group. This historical uncertainty does not put the present existence of those same ethnic groups in doubt. Not even a little. The one question is irrelevant to the other.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:04 AM   #43
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The question of the origin of the Jewish people can be phrased in various ways, and each may have a different answer. Is the question 'when was there for the first time an ethnicity that self-identified as 'Israel' or 'the Jews'?' or 'when was there first a group that followed a religion or tradition that resembled to a significant degree the religion expressed in the Hebrew Bible?' or 'when did a group emerge that was ethnically and/or culturally separate from others and from which one of the above was continuous?'

Some insight can be gleaned from Joel Ng's article Introduction to Biblical Archaeology 3:
The Rise of Some People or Other
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:19 AM   #44
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I have a sort of general question about the people known as "The Jews" and who the hell they are.
The Jews are the Hapiru, the Egyptian Apiru, the Sumerian Habattu - a tribe of thugs, burglers and thieves active in ancient Sumur, Batrun, Byblos, Upe/Damascus, who pinched as well their language and art of writing from the Phoenician around 1000 B.C. - in German (sorry)

Pharao Ahmose I die Macht zurück und besiegt die Hyksos. Nach Manetho (305 - 282 v.C.) aus Sebennytos belagert Ahmose (Tethmosis) Auaris mit 180.000 Mann und zwingt 240.000 Hyksos zum Rückzug nach Assyrien mit Hab und Gut, Zahlen die wie immer maßlos übertrieben sind. Die Palastruinen in Auaris haben keine typisch ägyptischen Merkmale, es werden die ältesten Pferdeskelette Ägyptens gefunden. Die Amarna Texte meist in Akkadisch geschrieben bezeichnen die Seevölker in Hilferufen an den Pharao als Shardana, Danuna und Lukka, die Texte stammen von Rib-Hadda aus Gubla (EA-81), Abu-Milku aus Tyros (EA-151) und dem König von Alashiya (EA-38). (http://www.auaris.at/html/ezbet.html

Um 1400 v.C. gehören zu den Großmächten des Nahen Osten die ägyptischen Pharaonen, die Könige von Mitanni, die Könige von Babylon, die Könige von Assyrien und die Könige der Hethiter. Pharao Thutmosis III führt um 1430 v.C. Kriege gegen Megiddo und die phönizischen Häfen. Auf Stelen in Memphis und Karnak prahlt sein Sohn Amenhotep II von 89.000 Gefangenen im Krieg gegen Canaan 1420 v.C., darunter seien auch 3.600 Apiru (Hapiru). Pharao Echnaton herrscht 100 Jahre später über Judäa mit Jerusalem unter einem Vasallenkönig, Ramses III kämpft 1177 v.C. gegen die Seevölker (Meshwesh). Nach dem Papyrus Harris geschrieben in Hieratisch auf 41 Meter über 1500 Zeilen siedelt er die Seevölker der Sherden und Weskesh als Puffer an Ägyptens Nordgrenze in Canaan an. Zuletzt werden die Shardana (Sherden) 1100 v.C. im Onomasticon von Amenemope als ein Teil der Seevölker genannt. Die Ansiedlung war vergeblich, Canaan wird für Jahrhunderte zum Zankapfel unter den benachbarten Großmächten und kommt zuletzt unter assyrisch-babylonischen Einfluss. (http://www.specialtyinterests.net/harris.html)

Pharao Ramses IV nennt die Seevölker im Harris Papyros die Shardana von der phönizischen Küste, der Grieche Herodotus beschreibt sie als wilde Barbaren und berichtet über Schlachten zwischen Phöniziern und Sardoniern (Sardinien). Über die Hapiru (Apiru) gibt es von 2000 – 1200 v.C. Nennungen bei den Sumerern, Ägyptern, Akkadiern, Hethitern, Mitanni und Ugaritern. Das in Akkadisch genutzte Wort Habattu bedeutet soviel wie Straßenräuber oder Wegelagerer. Deren Auftreten wird in Phönizien aus Sumur, Batrun und Byblos berichtet, aber auch aus Upe/Damascus und weiter südlich bis nach Jerusalem. Im Amarna Brief EA-286 beklagt Vasallekönig Abu-Heba von Jerusalem die Hapiru Eroberungen, ebenso wie Vasallenkönig Yapahu von Gezer in EA-298 beim Pharao die Apiru Räuberein anprangert. Es handelt sich nicht um einen ethnischen Stamm, sondern um einen Sammelbegriff wie „canaanitische Räuberbande“, welche beginnend etwa ab 1000 v.C. die Schrift, die Sprache und sogar die Götzen der Phönizier kopiert und damit eine eigene Kultur und Identität entwickelt. Für religiöse Forscher ist die Erkenntnis Israeliten = Hapiru nicht denkbar, es fehlt die Verbindung gesicherter Fakten der Geschichte mit den Mythen von Moses und der Bibel. Die semitischen Hyksos kamen als Eroberer nach Ägypten und zogen geschlagen ab, ganz anders als in der Bibel.
(http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/..._akhenaten.htm)

Ebla (Tell Mardikh/Syrien) war ein Stadtstaat, der als Siedlung etwa ab 3000 v.C. existierte und 2450 – 2200 v.C. eine Blütezeit hatte. Die Stadt war von einer 20 bis 30 Meter dicken Mauer umgeben mit einer Zitadelle im Zentrum. Wahrscheinlich hat Sargon, König von Akkad, die Stadt zerstört. Sie erreichte von 1850 – 1600 v.C. erneut Bedeutung um vom Hethiterkönig Hattusilis I zerstört zu werden. Neben Eblaitisch wurde Akkadisch als Sprache genutzt, im Palast finden sich an die 20.000 Keilschrifttafeln, davon etwa 80% in sumerischer Keilschrift. Viele Götter und Namen in der Bibel gehen auf eblaitische Worte zurück wie Yah/Jahweh, Adamu/Adam, h’�*wa /Eva, Abarama/Abraham, Bilhah, Ishmael, Isûrael, Esau, Mika-el/Michael, Saul, David usw

Die Ruinen von Mari (Tell-el-Harari/Syrien) wurden 1925 ähnlich Ebla südlich von Deir Ezzor gefunden. Der Stadtstaat existierte seit 2900 v.C. und wurde mit dem Handel von Zinn und Bronze reich. Um 2340 v.C. übernahmen die Akkadier aus Agadeh und später die Sumerer aus Ur mit dem Vasallenkönig Shakkanakkou die Macht. Um 1760 v.C. fiel Mari an das babylonische Königreich des Hammurabi, der die Stadt plünderte und zerstörte. Im Archiv wird die bekannte Mari-Tafel gefunden. In Mari wurde in Tempeln ebenfalls die heidnische Fruchtbarkeitsgöttin Ishtar verehrt, folglich waren die Götzen nicht lokal begrenzt, sondern ein weit verbreiteter Kult.
(http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/ar...chaeology.html)

Der antike Stadtstaat Ugarit (Ras Shamrah/Syrien 6 km nördlich Latakia) war seit 7000 v.C. besiedelt und hatte eine Blüte ab 1400 v.C. bis zur Zerstörung durch die Seevölker 1192 v.C., die dort mit 6 Kriegschiffen landen. Die Soldaten Ugarits waren als Tributleistung zum Königreich der Hethiter abgestellt. Der Tag ist durch eine Sonnenfinsternis bekannt, aufgezeichnet auf einer im Palastarchiv gefundenen Keilschrifttafel. Die etwa von 1400 – 1100 v.C. genutzte ugaritische Schrift in Cunei-Keilschrift geht aus dem Proto-Semitischen hervor, hat 30 Buchstaben und ähnelt dem späteren Phönizisch. Bereits unter Pharao Senusret I (1971 – 1926 v.C.) gibt es erste Kontakte nach Ugarit. Eine ugaritische Herrscherfolge von 31 Königen beginnt um 1850 v.C. Ugarit arrangiert sich mit den Großmächten, unterhält Kontakte mit nordägyptischen Hyksos, König Niqmaddu II heirate um 1400 v.C. eine ägyptische Prinzessin, leistet später den Hethitern unter Suppiluliuma I Tribut in Form von Soldaten. Die Vereinbarungen wurden in Akkadisch geschrieben. http://www.syriagate.com/Syria/about...kia/ugarit.htm)

Der ugaritische Gott El ist in der biblischen Genesis Schöpfer der Welt und belegt den Ursprung biblischer Mythen in heidnischen Götzenkulten. Gott El gilt auch in Ugarit als Schöpfer aller Dinge, ist der Götzenvater, paart sich mit vielen Frauen und wird als Mann mit Stierhörnern dargestellt. Ugaritische Götzen sind Yamm, Dagan, Mot, Anath, Kothar, Baal (Sohn von El) und die Götzin Asherah (Frau von El), die vom Frauenfeind Luther aus seiner Bibel getilgt wird. Ugaritische Götzen, Gebete, Mythen, Rituale und Texte werden in den hebräischen Tanach übernommen. Die heidnischen Götzen El Shaddai, El Elyon und El Berith werden zum hebräischen Gott Jahwe umgedeutet. Die ugaritischen Mythen haben großen Einfluss auf die canaanitische Kultur, was bis zur Entdeckung von Ugarit vor nur 75 Jahren die Mehrzahl der Bibeldeuter vehement bestritt.
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:58 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by SkepticBoyLee View Post
I have a sort of general question about the people known as "The Jews" and who the hell they are.
The Jews are the Hapiru, the Egyptian Apiru, the Sumerian Habattu - a tribe of thugs, burglers and thieves active in ancient Sumur, Batrun, Byblos, Upe/Damascus, who pinched as well their language and art of writing from the Phoenician around 1000 B.C. - in German
A connection between the 'Hapiru' or 'Habiru' and the 'Hebrews' has been hypothesised, but I doubt there is enough evidence to settle the point one way or the other.

Any description of a group of people as 'a tribe of thugs, burglars, and thieves' should be viewed with suspicion on first principles, because that's a common sort of accusation for people to make against their enemies. Before accepting any such assertion one should ask 'Who says so, and what axe might they have to grind?'

It's not possible to have proprietary rights in a language or system of writing, so it's purely pejorative rhetoric without scientific value to refer to them as having been 'pinched'.
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:11 AM   #46
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The origins to Hebrew may be found in the Armama letters which include correspondences between Canaanite vassal rulers and their Egyptian overlords written around the 14th century B.C.E. These letters as well as others refer to Habiru as a class of people rather than an ethnic group who seem to have lived on the fringes of civilisation who we would describe as brigands and outcasts who at best would sign up as mercenaries. The term appears to be an old Semantic word that appear in Sumerian texts dating from 2100 B.C.E that describe a class of people "unclothed people, who travel in dead silence, who destroy everything, whose menfolk go where they will — they establish their tents and their camps — they spend their time in the countryside without observing the decrees of my king". Latter in about 1650B.C.E the same term refers to mercenaries of unknown origin in the service of the king. In Hittite, Mitanni, Canaanite and Egyptian texts dating from between 1500 and 1000 B.C.E Habiru are mentioned as outsiders who were available for hire as either labourers or mercenaries.
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:32 AM   #47
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A connection between the 'Hapiru' or 'Habiru' and the 'Hebrews' has been hypothesised, but I doubt there is enough evidence to settle the point one way or the other.

Any description of a group of people as 'a tribe of thugs, burglars, and thieves' should be viewed with suspicion on first principles, because that's a common sort of accusation for people to make against their enemies. Before accepting any such assertion one should ask 'Who says so, and what axe might they have to grind?'.
The Sumerer called the Hapiru the "Habattu", which had the meaning of a "bunch of thieves an thugs" and named the villages which had to suffer most
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:37 AM   #48
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The origins to Hebrew may be found in the Armama letters which include correspondences between Canaanite vassal rulers and their Egyptian overlords written around the 14th century B.C.E.
The Amarna letters say little, in EA-81 Rib-Hadda from Gubla, in EA-151 Abu-Milku from Tyros and in EA-38 king Alashiya. Most is said in the Harris papyros referring to the Shardana and talking about 3600 Apiru prisoner.
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:08 PM   #49
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A connection between the 'Hapiru' or 'Habiru' and the 'Hebrews' has been hypothesised, but I doubt there is enough evidence to settle the point one way or the other.

Any description of a group of people as 'a tribe of thugs, burglars, and thieves' should be viewed with suspicion on first principles, because that's a common sort of accusation for people to make against their enemies. Before accepting any such assertion one should ask 'Who says so, and what axe might they have to grind?'.
The Sumerer called the Hapiru the "Habattu", which had the meaning of a "bunch of thieves an thugs" and named the villages which had to suffer most
Even if the Sumerian 'Habattu' were the same people as the Egyptian 'Hapiru', and I'm not sure how reliable that supposition is, the point I made before remains: if the Sumerians described another people as 'thieves and thugs', that doesn't mean we should automatically accept their description as factual. Obviously the Sumerians were at odds with the 'Habattu', but that's hardly sufficient basis for a condemnation.
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:28 PM   #50
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The Habiru weren't the Hebrews. If I recall correctly, the latest theory is that they were a sub-class of peasant bandits, unwantables in the street.
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