Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spacejunkie · 01-31-2007, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

But that passage in Luke is about having an unclean spirit. There is nothing about slaying unbelievers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke 19:27

But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.

I know it's a parable but the implications seem fairly clear to me. Maybe I'm wrong. What's your take?

spacejunkie · 01-31-2007, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cnote

I have been having this debate quite a bit too lately as xtian bigotry against Muslims is gaining momentum. My line is usually "it's not the religion, it's the culture/people/way they worship". Then I start rattling off the OT laws etc.

Usually the discussion takes a turn or stops there. However a few smarter xtians have come back at me with "well that's just OT law, xtianity is about the NT" to which I hit them with Matt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

A select few xtians have come back at me saying Jesus's love fulfilled the OT law and that it no longer applies as justified by the quotes below

SNIP

I do not have a good comeback to this one and am interested if anyone does.

So am I!

No Robots · 01-31-2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spacejunkie

I know it's a parable but the implications seem fairly clear to me. Maybe I'm wrong. What's your take?

I love this parable. It is really tricky and it took me a long time to feel that I understood it somewhat. Basically he's just been accused of being in league with the devil, from whence his powers of healing are said to come. He defends himself, and then comes out with the parable:

Quote:

When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through places without water, seeking rest; and not finding, he saith: I will return into my house whence I came out.
And when he is come, he findeth it swept and garnished.
Then he goeth and taketh with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and entering in they dwell there. And the last state of that man becomes worse than the first.

I take this as being a swipe at his accusers. They think they are free of the devil, yet even if they are so for the moment, the devil is just waiting to come on back with friends. I think the universal point is that while we can cleanse ourselves spiritually, we are always at risk of falling back into worse delinquency, particularly if we have merely "swept and garnished," and not filled ourselves with a truly healthy spirit.

CreamFilledGiraffe · 01-31-2007, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cnote

<snippage>

A select few xtians have come back at me saying Jesus's love fulfilled the OT law and that it no longer applies as justified by the quotes below

Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

<snippage>

Hmm... If these are the two greatest commandments of the Law and Christ's life/death/ascension/whatever "fulfilled" the law then are we still required to love god and our neighbours?

Don't know why this never occurred to me before.

spamandham · 01-31-2007, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cnote

I do not have a good comeback to this one and am interested if anyone does.

You could refer them to the verses, I think in Acts, where Peter basically invokes the power of god to kill a couple for selling a plot of land and falsely claiming to give all the proceeds to the church. Going from memory, so I can't remember the exact details.

yalla · 01-31-2007, 11:17 PM

Or, again from Paul, somewhere he orders his followers to punish the incestuous fornicators by 'delivering them to satan for the destruction of the flesh'. I'm not sure what that means exactly [does sound like murder tho'] but whatever it is it doesn't sound nice.

JoyJuice · 02-01-2007, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cnote

A select few xtians have come back at me saying Jesus's love fulfilled the OT law and that it no longer applies as justified by the quotes below

Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
Galatians 5:14

"But if ye are led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
Galatians 5:18

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
Romans 13:8-10

I do not have a good comeback to this one and am interested if anyone does.

You can tell them that the two greatest commandments does not negate the other 611 that Jesus specifically says his fulfillment of the laws and the prophets does not pass away. It just means the two greastest. Then tell them that Jesus is Jesus, Paul is Paul, who are you really following?

Proverbs 21:9 · 02-01-2007, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cnote

I do not have a good comeback to this one and am interested if anyone does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

You could refer them to the verses, I think in Acts, where Peter basically invokes the power of god to kill a couple for selling a plot of land and falsely claiming to give all the proceeds to the church.

See Acts 5:1-11.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yalla

Or, again from Paul, somewhere he orders his followers to punish the incestuous fornicators by 'delivering them to satan for the destruction of the flesh'.

See I Cor 5:5, I Tim 1:20.

Here's your trump card:

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (II Tim 3:16-17, NAS)

Scripture here obviously refers to the OT. Passages such as those referenced by driver8, as well as numerous other atrocities, are apparently profitable for "instruction in righteousness."

yalla · 02-01-2007, 08:43 AM

Proverbs 21:9,
Thanks for the references.
I Cor 5.5 I would have found but the I Tim ref. is new to me and very interesting.
A strange parallel don't you think?
If it attempts to be a back reference to I Cor 5.5 it is in error in that the author has named 2 persons and Paul only stipulated one ['this man'].

Care to explain your choice of Proverbs 21.9 for your nickname?
cheers
yalla

Proverbs 21:9 · 02-01-2007, 09:28 AM

yalla, you make an interesting point. I'm disinclined to interpret it that way myself simply because the verses refer to two different sins (sexual immorality in I Cor, blasphemy in I Tim). Still, I'm new to this level of analysis, and I appreciate your insight.

The last church I attended removed an elder from fellowship after his adulterous relationship was discovered. Later in the week, he was arrested for some public misconduct while intoxicated. The pastor then proudly held this up as an example of the sinner being delivered to Satan, as per Paul's instructions. It was rather disconcerting to see hundreds of normally compassionate people consider their faith affirmed by the whole episode.

My nickname comes from an inside joke dating back to a high school church event. It has no other significance, though it does seem like an absurd bit of wisdom for the universe's creator to emphasize.

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01-31-2007, 11:17 PM	#16
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Or, again from Paul, somewhere he orders his followers to punish the incestuous fornicators by 'delivering them to satan for the destruction of the flesh'. I'm not sure what that means exactly [does sound like murder tho'] but whatever it is it doesn't sound nice.

02-01-2007, 08:43 AM	#19
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Proverbs 21:9, Thanks for the references. I Cor 5.5 I would have found but the I Tim ref. is new to me and very interesting. A strange parallel don't you think? If it attempts to be a back reference to I Cor 5.5 it is in error in that the author has named 2 persons and Paul only stipulated one ['this man']. Care to explain your choice of Proverbs 21.9 for your nickname? cheers yalla

02-01-2007, 09:28 AM	#20
Proverbs 21:9 New Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 2	yalla, you make an interesting point. I'm disinclined to interpret it that way myself simply because the verses refer to two different sins (sexual immorality in I Cor, blasphemy in I Tim). Still, I'm new to this level of analysis, and I appreciate your insight. The last church I attended removed an elder from fellowship after his adulterous relationship was discovered. Later in the week, he was arrested for some public misconduct while intoxicated. The pastor then proudly held this up as an example of the sinner being delivered to Satan, as per Paul's instructions. It was rather disconcerting to see hundreds of normally compassionate people consider their faith affirmed by the whole episode. My nickname comes from an inside joke dating back to a high school church event. It has no other significance, though it does seem like an absurd bit of wisdom for the universe's creator to emphasize.

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