Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 10-07-2012, 12:51 PM

Quote:

--The article is quite long, so I only quoted a bit of it.

It would be good form to provide us with a link, or at very least the title and author of said article so we could examine it for ourselves.

sotto voce · 10-07-2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

Paul would seem to be heavily influenced by Greek philosophy

Quote, please.

In First Corinthians 12, Paul explains that "a body is not one single organ, but many. ... Suppose the ear were to say, 'Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body', it does still belong to the body. If the body were all eye, how could it hear? If the body were all ear, how could it smell? But, in fact, God appointed each limb and organ to its own place in the body, as he chose."
Who would dispute this marvelously enlightening metaphor? It ranges out to bring understanding to all who read it. But when we put it to the test of Hebrew or Greek origin, the piece surely belongs in the Attic column.

Perhaps Paul borrowed the analogy, but it did not affect his teaching point, if he did. Surely many people have used the same analogy, or something similar; one could use a PC, a motor vehicle, that are made up of various components, to illustrate what Paul wanted to say. A motor car may have a fabulous 6 litre engine, but it's no good if it has has only three tyres. Now if Paul had used that analogy, it would have been just as good. In theory.

Paul and Plato used the same idea for different purposes. Plato's subject was virtue, that can be said to be indivisible. Paul's subject was people. His purpose was to teach the Corinthians that, while different members of their church had different gifts and roles, there was to be no special honouring of people with particular roles, but that all 'should have equal concern for each other'. So the little lady who makes the tea is not to be treated with one whit less love, respect and honour than the miracle worker or even the apostle. Paul's purpose here was egalitarianism; not a concept too readily associated with Plato.

But it can be traced to the history of Israel and the patriarchs. There are actually very few sentences of Paul that cannot be attributed to his own scripture, of which he had been a passionate advocate against Christianity. There is not very much of the broad outline of Christianity that cannot be sourced in Genesis. The rest of the Bible is just filling in.

Quote:

When we read Paul's proclamation in Colossians, "He is, moreover, the head of the body, the church," we are once again treated to one of Plato's figurative descriptions. When taking on this subject, Paul used ideas from the Timaeus; although it reads like veneration for Jesus of Nazareth, in reality, Paul is once again paying tribute to the principles of Plato. Here is the original: "First, then, the gods, imitating the spherical shape of the universe, enclosed the two divine courses in a spherical body, that, namely, which we now term the head, being the most divine part of us and the lord of all that is in us; to this the gods, when they put together the body, gave all the other members to be servants."

This is rather obvious, though, surely. If one believes in deity or deities, one must believe that it is or they are superior to humanity.

It is more than possible, imv, that Plato and many more philosophers were influenced by that scripture of Paul, that had been taken, by force of circumstances, all around the known world, with Jews writing apologia to explain to Gentiles. So Plato might have been reflecting what he had read in Paul's scripture, or read about his scripture.

Sheshbazzar · 10-07-2012, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

It is more than possible, imv, that Plato and many more philosophers were influenced by that scripture of Paul,.......So Plato might have been reflecting what he had read in Paul's scripture, or read about his scripture.

erm... Plato lived and wrote circa 400 BCE. When was it that you think 'Paul' lived and wrote?

sotto voce · 10-07-2012, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

It is more than possible, imv, that Plato and many more philosophers were influenced by that scripture of Paul,.......So Plato might have been reflecting what he had read in Paul's scripture, or read about his scripture.

erm... Plato lived and wrote circa 400 BCE. When was it that you think 'Paul' lived and wrote?

Time you saw the optician.

Sheshbazzar · 10-07-2012, 02:21 PM

Yeah perhaps. And time for you to put up or shut up.

Toto · 10-07-2012, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote, please.

In First Corinthians 12, Paul explains that "a body is not one single organ, but many. ... Suppose the ear were to say, 'Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body', it does still belong to the body. If the body were all eye, how could it hear? If the body were all ear, how could it smell? But, in fact, God appointed each limb and organ to its own place in the body, as he chose."
Who would dispute this marvelously enlightening metaphor? It ranges out to bring understanding to all who read it. But when we put it to the test of Hebrew or Greek origin, the piece surely belongs in the Attic column. Plato also used these same organs when he put Socrates and Protagoras in a discussion about virtue, hundreds of years before Paul developed his religion. Socrates asks Protagoras, "Is virtue a single whole, and are justice and self-control and holiness parts of it? ... as the parts of a face are parts--mouth, nose, eyes and ears." Socrates then probes into the metaphor further by asking Protagoras if they agree that each part serves a different purpose, just as the features of a face do, and the parts make the whole, but each serves a different purpose--"the eye is not like the ear nor has it the same function."
When we read Paul's proclamation in Colossians, "He is, moreover, the head of the body, the church," we are once again treated to one of Plato's figurative descriptions.

When we read Paul's proclamation in Colossians, "He is, moreover, the head of the body, the church," we are once again treated to one of Plato's figurative descriptions. When taking on this subject, Paul used ideas from the Timaeus; although it reads like veneration for Jesus of Nazareth, in reality, Paul is once again paying tribute to the principles of Plato. Here is the original: "First, then, the gods, imitating the spherical shape of the universe, enclosed the two divine courses in a spherical body, that, namely, which we now term the head, being the most divine part of us and the lord of all that is in us; to this the gods, when they put together the body, gave all the other members to be servants."

-- The article is quite long, so I only quoted a bit of it.

Is this your source?

Saint Paul's Homage to Plato, by F.F. Powell
http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/pub...ril/mtpub2.asp

F. F. Powell is the author of a self published book, Robbing Peter to Pay Paul: The Usurpation of Jesus and the Original Disciples (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Also on google books and available as an ebook

F. F. Powell is a journalist. She has written Sunday School material for the Southern Baptist Convention and has worked as a reporter for the Southwest Times Record in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Research and the writing of this book took fifteen years. Currently she edits a travel magazine

proudfootz · 10-07-2012, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

--The article is quite long, so I only quoted a bit of it.

It would be good form to provide us with a link, or at very least the title and author of said article so we could examine it for ourselves.

Sorry, link was in post #6.

proudfootz · 10-07-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

In First Corinthians 12, Paul explains that "a body is not one single organ, but many. ... Suppose the ear were to say, 'Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body', it does still belong to the body. If the body were all eye, how could it hear? If the body were all ear, how could it smell? But, in fact, God appointed each limb and organ to its own place in the body, as he chose."
Who would dispute this marvelously enlightening metaphor? It ranges out to bring understanding to all who read it. But when we put it to the test of Hebrew or Greek origin, the piece surely belongs in the Attic column. Plato also used these same organs when he put Socrates and Protagoras in a discussion about virtue, hundreds of years before Paul developed his religion. Socrates asks Protagoras, "Is virtue a single whole, and are justice and self-control and holiness parts of it? ... as the parts of a face are parts--mouth, nose, eyes and ears." Socrates then probes into the metaphor further by asking Protagoras if they agree that each part serves a different purpose, just as the features of a face do, and the parts make the whole, but each serves a different purpose--"the eye is not like the ear nor has it the same function."
When we read Paul's proclamation in Colossians, "He is, moreover, the head of the body, the church," we are once again treated to one of Plato's figurative descriptions.

When we read Paul's proclamation in Colossians, "He is, moreover, the head of the body, the church," we are once again treated to one of Plato's figurative descriptions. When taking on this subject, Paul used ideas from the Timaeus; although it reads like veneration for Jesus of Nazareth, in reality, Paul is once again paying tribute to the principles of Plato. Here is the original: "First, then, the gods, imitating the spherical shape of the universe, enclosed the two divine courses in a spherical body, that, namely, which we now term the head, being the most divine part of us and the lord of all that is in us; to this the gods, when they put together the body, gave all the other members to be servants."

-- The article is quite long, so I only quoted a bit of it.

Is this your source?

Saint Paul's Homage to Plato, by F.F. Powell
http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/pub...ril/mtpub2.asp

F. F. Powell is the author of a self published book, Robbing Peter to Pay Paul: The Usurpation of Jesus and the Original Disciples (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Also on google books and available as an ebook

F. F. Powell is a journalist. She has written Sunday School material for the Southern Baptist Convention and has worked as a reporter for the Southwest Times Record in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Research and the writing of this book took fifteen years. Currently she edits a travel magazine

Yes, that link looks like it goes to same place as link in post #6.

proudfootz · 10-07-2012, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

It is more than possible, imv, that Plato and many more philosophers were influenced by that scripture of Paul,.......So Plato might have been reflecting what he had read in Paul's scripture, or read about his scripture.

erm... Plato lived and wrote circa 400 BCE. When was it that you think 'Paul' lived and wrote?

I've known that many want to date Paul very early, but that's way early!

sotto voce · 10-07-2012, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

It is more than possible, imv, that Plato and many more philosophers were influenced by that scripture of Paul,.......So Plato might have been reflecting what he had read in Paul's scripture, or read about his scripture.

erm... Plato lived and wrote circa 400 BCE. When was it that you think 'Paul' lived and wrote?

I've known that many want to date Paul very early, but that's way early!

Now would you have written that without the intervention of the heavily defeated?

We will suppose that the thread is now over, bar the usual noises.

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10-07-2012, 02:21 PM	#15
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Yeah perhaps. And time for you to put up or shut up.

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