kcdad

This has got to be the most often asked question on these forums... are you kidding me? Do you believe everything you read in the newspapers? Do you believe everything you hear on the radio or TV? Do you believe everything your friends, teachers, parents or anyone tells you?

You use your GOD given ability to reason and research... ask questions... discovery wisdom... it won't be given to you.

Toto

But my reason tells me that none of the Bible is reliable, or especially wise, or has much other redeeming value. The people who like to rely on it often haven't even read it, like that Congressman who didn't know the 10 Commandments but was sure that they should be displayed on public property.

Further, it is painfully obvious that people who claim to be able to distinguish the believable parts of the Bible are usually engaged in wishful thinking and bad logic.

So the question remains - why be a Christian?

I'm not saying that you don't have a good answer, but it certainly isn't based on combining the Bible with reason.

aa5874

People can only deal with the information before them.

In the NT, we know what is written about the conception of Jesus.

I know Matthew 1.18 is fiction, so Jesus was never born as described and could not have gone to Egypt unless the author wrote fiction about his birth.

It is not rash at all to consider the Jesus could have never gone to Egypt if he was never born.

IamJoseph

One cannot know what cannot be evidenced, as the Gospels is a self declared document based on belief, with no historical back up whatsoever. Usually, when no proof is available, for such a long period and when so many writers [apostles] are involved, it should be seen as a fiction. The plot becomes more chatic with Islam saying there was no resurrection and that Jesus lived to a ripe old age and had a family. Both these beliefs cannot be right - one is positively false. Yes/no?

The issue in 30 CE was precarious in Judea, with the Romans commiting upto 800 crucifixions a day in town squares [Jospehus]. The Roman demands kept the Jews in a radical mode of war and fanatical religiousness, killing its own people at the mention of any fear or agreement of Rome's decree; if the Gospels has any veracity, then it is possible a Jesus like figure would have been seen as proposing what was seen in that time as a blasphemy, and anyone not engaged in countering Rome would have been looked upon negatively. Equally, the Islamic report of Jesus is again without any proof.

Considiering these factors, it appears the Hebrew/Jewish vews have the most veracity: they have not said anything which cannot be proven here, while this applies to the NT and Quran. The most impacting factor here is, with the heresy decree hovering over Judea, and the eventual destruction of over a million Jews [equivalent to 12 Million today], and the destruction of an entire city, says jesus could not have survived Rome: what would his response be to not worshipping a Roman Emperor's decree? This says there was no need for a trial - evidenced by the wholesale slaughter of all others in Judea.

IamJoseph

A provocative but real potential thought. If the immaculate conception is proven false - both Christianity and Islam become negated in one single stroke. This is because both have condoned this factor as fulcrum to their beliefs and scriptures. That this is very difficult to prove or dis-prove, makes the relying on such a factor less than credible. Yet over 3 B people believe this for their very lives. Every 2 years, Rome took an accounting of the poulation - but one does not know if births and marraiges were recorded.

kcdad

That is not the question for this thread, moderator. You shouldn't be derailing the discussion. No one is requiring you to believe or not believe anything about Christianity.
What is painfully obvious is that you have your mind completely set against anything that resembles your experiences growing up in a religious culture... oh well. Life is tough for everyone growing up.

You don't like the Bible, don't read it. Where do you seek and find wisdom? Where do you seek and find inspiration?

kcdad

The "virgin" birth is irrelevant to Christianity, and certainly needless to Islam.

Of course it is fictional. Not fictional in that it was made up out of hte thin air. It was the way people in that described someone being different, special or great.
Every man is "born of woman", that is our curse as the ancient sayings go, but to be born from an act of sex... a selfish, sweaty, violent act of sex??? Not THAT King! Not that Prophet! Not that Priest.

Toto

You are right, this is a digression, but this thread has wandered a bit, from one particular alleged contradiction, to contradictions in general, to the general import of contradictions and inerrancy.

This forum is for the examination of ancient texts as literature and historical sources, not as inspiration or sources of wisdom. If you want inspiration, you probably don't want to pay too much attention to the details of scripture.

You do seem to be making some assumptions about me that don't fit my experience. Painfully obvious? You don't even know me.

Minimalist

Excuse me but where does Josephus say that? Please provide the citation.

30 CE was the reign of Tiberius which tended to be a time of peace and prosperity for Judaea. That began to change when Caligula became emperor but, according to your fairy tale, your boy was already dead by then.

Josephus also puts the death of John the Baptist near 35 or 36 CE which means your boy's ministry could not have started until then and since Pilate's last "passover" would have been in the Spring of 36 that doesn't leave a lot of time for your catalogue of "miracles."

kcdad

Your history is questionable...

Josephus reports that some claimed God was punishing Herod in 36CE for his killing of John the Baptist... When was John killed by Herod, according to Josephus? DUH... sometime prior to 36CE... but he doesn't say when. It could have been 20 BCE, or 10 CE.

Funny, ain't it? John the Baptist = real guy, historical figure
Jesus = uh uh, no way, fictional, made up, an invention of ....whom? The followers of John!?!?!?