aa5874

Your claim is utterly erroneous. The Epistle to the Hebrews makes complete sense AFTER the Jesus story was known.

That is the PRECISE chronology of the Epistle to the Hebrews--AFTER the Jesus story.

You do NOT understand the NT at all. You do NOT understand the Epistle to the Hebrews

Again, the author of Epistle to the Hebrews shows that he was aware of the Jesus story and was composed AFTER the short gMark, and gMatthew.

The Epistle to the Hebrews claims Jesus was SACRIFICIED for Sins which is found in the Later Gospel of gJohn.

What trickery??? You have special evidence that is unknown to Scholarship?? The evidence to date the Epistle of Hebrews should be in the Public Domain--not just your book.

Well, there is NO-NIL-ZERO evidence from antiquity to date the Epistle to the Hebrews prior to the Jewish War.

The discovery of the short gMark show that up to the end of the 1st century or after the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE there was NO story that Jesus was Crucified for Remission of Sins or was Sacrificed for the Salvation of Jews.

And further, neither Philo or Josephus up to the end of the 1st century wrote about a character called Jesus who was BELIEVED by Jews and Romans to have been Sacrificied for Remission of Sins.

All arguments that we have about Jesus are 2nd century or later and it is in the 2nd century or later that the Epistle to the Hebrews is first mentioned by name by Apologetics.

stephan huller

Tertullian (Against Praxeas) certainly seems to interpret the material as if it implies the earthly presence of a supernatural Jesus:

Tertullian not only assigns Psalm 8:5 to the pre-existent Son of God; he further applies this verse to the angelophanic Son. Specifically, Tertullian believes that another way in which the Logos became lower than the angels was by entering into discourse with humankind via visions, dreams, or other forms of supernatural phenomena ... By manifesting Himself as an angel to the patriarchs and prophets, Christ demonstrated his minor status in relation to celestial creaturely essences, Tertullian argues. The angelophanies recorded in the OT were adumbrations of Christ's first earthly manifestation. By this reduction He was brought by the Father to these <acts and experiences> which you disapprove of as human: for He was learning even from the beginning, by so early assuming manhood, to be that which He was going to be at the end." [Edgar Foster Angelomorphic Christology And the Exegesis of Psalm 8:5 in Tertullian's Against Praxeas p. 31, 32]

outhouse

At the rate Christianity spread through the Roman empire, we cannot attribute Paul as its origin nor the sole contributing factor for the speed at which it evolved foward.

I dont see a myth of a magical man in the clouds and hearsay generating enough energy in oral tradition to evolve the way we witness Christianity which can be describes as a explosion within Hellenistic Jewish communities.

Possibly 400,000 witnesses at a passover event in which a man was martyred standing up against the known corruption in the Jewish governement, does explain the catalyst for the speed of the movements evolution. Having the Temple authorities hire a headhunter to squash the leaders of this movement means right from the get go, they viewed this sect as dangerous.

Some people following mythology through theology would be left alone and would never be seen as a threat worshipping a invisible leader.


Theres is to much going on with the whole picture to try and reconstruct too much using the Hebrews epistle other then understand how one Hellenistic sect viewed Jesus as a mediator between God and humanity. That and how they viewed the Jesus charactor filling this role as "high priest" "son" and "son of god" which was in direct competition with the emporer's divinity.


I applaud Earl for his effort in following a possible mytholoigical path for the origin and how it applies to this piece, It was quite the accomplishment.

I just think a more reasonable explaination paints a clearer picture.

Sheshbazzar

'400,000 witnesses at a passover event.' Where would they have been standing to witness all of this stuff?

Wouldn't the crowd of 400,000 have blocked the view of most of these 'witnesses'?

Or did this religious drama take place in the Colosseum?

Maybe it was 400,000 angels looking down from heaven?

Or they 'witnessed' it on television in outer-space?

outhouse

Placing a martyred man on a cross in a place where the majority of people go in and out as to make a example of one, would make one fairly visible.


Did all 400,000 ish people witness this? Probably not. But had you been there it would have been the talk of the town, and a highlighted event that all would have went home with some knowledge of. It would have factually generated quite the amount of oral tradition.


If we know about a Roman guard whipping it out and urinating 2000 ish year's ago that started riots and caused major amounts of death, no reason why a martyred man would not be remembered.

Sheshbazzar

Overhearing 'the talk of the town' gossip, and being a 'witness' to an actual event are two entirely different things.

Hundreds of Jews were crucified by the Romans. Most of them were 'martyrs' for Jewish causes. Nothing remarkable about another that history never even heard of.

No doubt there was a lot of gossip, urban legends, pissed off story telling, and oral traditions being built up.
That doesn't make any of these oral traditions into factual historical accounts.

Not one Gospel writer could claim that he had personally witnessed anything that he was writing about. It was just recited traditional gossip.

And without the New Testament's improvised accounts there would be no knowledge at all of any of this 'traditional' gossip, and there would be no 'Christian' religion.

There are no known 'witnesses' to anything that is reported in the New Testament.

Any New Testament 'witnesses' are every bit as fictional as Satan, or that 'Legion' and herd of swine that Jesooce cast demons into.

mountainman

Why don't we see inscriptions for Jesus Christ on foundation stones to any buildings in the dreamtime.

Even evidence for the nomina sacra codes which were simple to graffiti, such as

"ΙΣ"

Chili

Just telling about the man who was crucified is good enough to be 'good news' that was unheard of in those days and was good news to all who heard. And many or most got zapped by 'the evangelist' in motion that will draw crowds bigger than Billy Graham ever did 2000 years later to a crowd who have heard the same story time and time again, because: Jesus is alive, he says, but must deceive you first to confess your sins and say "I will" in public that you will believe in him.

We are talking 'fire' here man, fire that is new to man and some on them were praying, some of them were dancing, some to them were singing halleluia's, but all of them were worshiping the Lord, and I can just see the fire being fanned by all.

And yes, 400.000 is no problem for me to accept, as the whole desert looked greener than it ever did to all, without exception, to the point that even the sun would say: what makes the grass so green these days?

It is a beautiful story, you will have to admit, that 2000 years later we still try to untangle, as many or most of us still believe the story as was told, and actually is the reason why the fire is kept alive today by those who still worship that same Jesus of old.

EarlDoherty

Stephan, of course that is how Tertullian interprets things, because that is what he and other Christians believed by that time. This is not rocket science.

Earl Doherty

EarlDoherty

AA, you always sound as though you are about to have a heart attack. I fear for your health. I will stop provoking you with viewpoints which don't agree with your constitution. (Of course, I can't be responsible for anything you may overhear.)

Earl Doherty