Dave Hawkins

Everyone should be familiar with Methuselah who supposedly lived 969 years and the other pre-Flood patriarchs who lived 900+ years.

But did they really? Is there external corroboration of these statements?

Well ... here's a good starting place ...

Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, p. 29 ... http://books.google.com/books?id=Tij...brr=1#PPA29,M1 ... see paragraph 9 on this page.

Josephus lists many authorities who wrote ancient histories who said these ancients lived ~1000 years. It is interesting to note that even in his day there was evidently skepticism about this, because Josephus goes to extra trouble to support his view that they really did live that long.

What say you?

RED DAVE

And if even if Josephus' time people didn't believe this bullshit, why should we? I guess the corpses of these people were buried un that mile-think layer of sediment left by the Flood.

By the way, since Noah's life and Abraham's life actually overlapped, did they hang out?

RED DAVE

The Evil One

I say that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and some guy 2,000 years ago saying that some other guys even longer ago said that it was true doesn't exactly cut the mustard.

I say, if you're going to trust ancient word-of-mouth, why not trust the sumerian king-list, which is a lot closer to source than Josephus, and reports life spans of 30-40,000 years?

I say, real biological evidence shows us that humans are incapable of living much more than 120 years in the most favourable circumstances (let alone those that appertained in ancient times); real archaeological and palaeontological evidence shows us that people in the past did not live longer than us and in fact, in many cases, much less; and it will take a hell of a lot more than vague second hand reports to overturn real biological and archaeological/palaeontological evidence.

You do know, don't you, that human testimony is the weakest kind of evidence there is, and it gets exponentially weaker the more "second-hand" it is?

deadman_932

Is this what you've come to now, Dave? Avoiding the threads filled with scientific questions for you so that you can ask questions about Josephus and tall tales? http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/JOSEPHUS.HTM Has the full work, in a readable format.

This has as little support as Herodotus' claims of ants in India as big as dogs...which, oddly, you also seemed to take at face value, despite having no supporting evidence at all from what is now one of the highest-population density countries in the world.

What you fail to realize is that Josephus is not giving "independent corroboration" of tales from the OT, Dave. He is recounting the tales he, as a Jew, has learned from Jews. Hence : "Antiquities of the Jews" This is just as "independent corroboration" as someone repeating Homer or any other work. Please try to engage your mind here.

Including authors like Manetho that you specifically reject because he gives a history of the Egyptians that you reject. THat's the Egyptian King Lists, Dave.

Now, besides Manetho...who in Josephus' list do you believe, and why? How does this corroborate anything about Hebrew patriarchs? If I point to Greek Myths saying that a man lived 300 years, does this make it true? Does it also support "Methuselah?" How?

As far as the archaeology and physical anthropology of the region...Dave, I know you haven't a clue as to average age span during the time you think Methuselah lived. I also know that you don't have a clue about what skeletal evidence does exist at 8000-2500 BCE for the levant region in particular or middle east in general.

Dave Hawkins

No one's forcing you to believe it. You can believe whatever you want to believe. Of course there is no way I can prove it to you. Of course I realize that humans cannot live this long NOW, under present conditions. But I can offer you the numerous sources cited by Josephus, a writer who is 2000 years closer to these events than we are, which corroborate the Biblical account.

And that's really the best I can do.

I would ask, "If you reject written historical accounts, then how do you determine ANYTHING in ancient history?"

I suspect that you DO trust other written accounts of ancient history. It's just that you are selective in your trusting. I suspect that you have some philosophical reasons why you want to reject these accounts of primeval longevity. Could that be the case? Perhaps?

And how do you know that these Sumerian king lists are being translated properly? Henry Morris has written that they have recently been retranslated and that the new translation falls in line with Josephus' sources. Don't ask me to look up Morris' reference. I can't place my hand on it now, but I would like to find it at some point and examine Morris' source.

deadman_932

What "numerous sources," Dave? Manetho's work doesn't exist as he wrote it. What you have is Josephus saying what HE claims Manetho said..and the likelihood is that he didn't even have a copy of Manetho around. Those are the names Josephus gives. YOU say it's independent corroborations, so how many of those authors have you read? Which do you believe and why? Which of them mention Methuselah in particular?

Pfft. The desperation is pretty obvious, Davey

deadman_932

Here's Hesiod's "Works and Days" Davey: Please point out the reference to Methuselah: http://omacl.org/Hesiod/works.html > Maybe it's this part:

(ll. 109-120) First of all the deathless gods who dwell on
Olympus made a golden race of mortal men who lived in the time of
Cronos when he was reigning in heaven. And they lived like gods
without sorrow of heart, remote and free from toil and grief:
miserable age rested not on them; but with legs and arms never
failing they made merry with feasting beyond the reach of all
evils. When they died, it was as though they were overcome with
sleep, and they had all good things; for the fruitful earth
unforced bare them fruit abundantly and without stint. They
dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many good things,
rich in flocks and loved by the blessed gods.

(ll. 121-139) But after earth had covered this generation -- they
are called pure spirits dwelling on the earth, and are kindly,
delivering from harm, and guardians of mortal men; for they roam
everywhere over the earth, clothed in mist and keep watch on
judgements and cruel deeds, givers of wealth; for this royal
right also they received; -- then they who dwell on Olympus made
a second generation which was of silver and less noble by far.
It was like the golden race neither in body nor in spirit. A
child was brought up at his good mother's side an hundred years,
an utter simpleton, playing childishly in his own home.
*********************************************

Is that it, Dave? Damn, I don't see any mention of Methuselah or Hebrews ANYWHERE

Dave Hawkins

DM ... I haven't read ANY of them. I said Josephus' citations are a good place to start. Let's read them and see what they have to say, shall we? And why would you expect Hesiod, a Greek writer (I think) to mention Hebrews here, who didn't appear until well after the pre-Flood patriarchs. Also, Hesiod spoke a different language. Why should we expect to see Methuselah's name as 'Methuselah'?

How can you even debate these issues if you cannot understand basic concepts such as these?

deadman_932

I can point out that Josephus' claim bears no resemblance to yours, Dave.
No, there is not. Josephus mentions Hesiod as writing about greek myths...so how on earth would that apply to the Hebrew or anything else relevant to Methuselah as you say?

This is how Hesiod begins: From there Hesiod launches into his recounting of the five ages of man, ...again what the hell does this have to do with anything Relevant to Josephus?

If you haven't even READ any of the works Josephus cites as mentioning people living long lives in a mythical past, why would you assert it corroborates the Biblical tales of Methuselah?

Your lack of logic in the pursuit of ANYTHING that you THINK might support some fantasy OT tales is amusing. It's as bad as your claim that because the bible mentions talking snakes that there MUST be a "scientific" explanation for it that science just hasn't discovered yet. There IS a scientific explanation for it, Dave: it's called "myth." That's the starting and ending point.

Lucretius

I have often wondered (with no evidence at all I hasten to add ) whether the "years" were in fact "months "
That would make Methuselah by my calculation 80.75 years old so lets say 81, which would certainly count as "old" for those times