Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 10:44 AM

Quote:

If you're really interested

I am really interested. I find calendars among the only reliable pieces of information that survive from antiquity because mathematics - unlike prose - can't lie.

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 10:46 AM

Here, I found this. http://books.google.com/books?id=DpF...day%22&f=false. Very cool. I always love uncovering incontrovertible evidence for divergent Israelite practices.

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 10:50 AM

Yes. The key is that 364 can be divided by 7. I am going to read this now. But the greater question for the history of religion is whether the Jewish (and sectarian Samaritan interest) in the year beginning in the seventh month is simply a product of Babylonian influence or whether it goes back to these communities. It never made sense to me why the Pentateuch was written with a spring beginning of the year in mind but Jewish religion switched over to a seventh day beginning. Very interesting questions. Far more interesting than debating with ----- about Buddhist and Asclepian influence over the Therapeutae.

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 10:52 AM

The Samaritans to this day avoid using the Babylonian names of the months. Like the days, 'month one' (although they will use names used in the Pentateuch to describe the first month).

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 10:57 AM

So Paolo Sacchi (it is amazing to see how many Italians are into this Enochian stuff) says that:

Quote:

As we can deduce from the Astronomical Book, this 364-day calendar was derived from an older one, identical in structure though based on a different philosophy. The earlier one, still of 364 days, was the form that Ezekiel knew and, in fact, it probably originated in his own circles. In this early phase the solar year was divided into twelve months of thirty days each, leaving the four days of the equinoxes and solstices out of the calculation. The “true” year, then, had 360 days, to which four days had to be added outside the normal day count. These four days, the equinoxes and solstices, were days in which the sun stood still—a lack of movement was interpreted as a lack of time.18 This apparently marginal element, that the year had 360 days plus four rather than 364, is important because it is fundamental and expresses a complex philosophy. This philosophy is hidden behind the assumption that there are four days with no movement, and therefore out of time. [p. 102]

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 11:01 AM

Yes, this is perfect. It underscores how this system originally worked and was related to Ezekiel. When the Jews fled with Ptolemy they must have taken this system to Alexandria and whatever religious tradition eventually dominated the Jewish temple later, the system became associated with the displaced Sadducean community who preserved the DSS material. The relationship between the Therapeutae and the Essenes may have been direct (i.e. that they were a sect of the Essenes) or it could well have been indirect (i.e. they all preserved the original calendar). I have somewhere in my library a Brill book called the Secret System by Gerhard Larsson which argues (convincingly I might add) that the Pentateuch was written with three calendars (one lunar, one solar and I forget the third). The solar calendar was essential to the new religion. All of which makes it odd that the Jewish religion went over to a Babylonian and more primitive lunar based calendar. So too the Samaritans (albeit without the names of months). Was this just a product of the 'gutter' religion (i.e. the religion of the rabble) taking over? That they Sadducees, the traditional knowledgeable minds, the 'preservers' of a secret system (or one which wasn't shared with the rabble) ended up losing power? That's my guess. But why? Why wouldn't the Romans have continued to favor the ruling class?

aa5874 · 02-10-2013, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

You appear to have no idea that EXPERTS can disagree with each other using the very same Data.

No, I am saying smart people - people smarter and better educated that you and I - have been having ongoing dialogues about these matters and you all feel good about yourselves ignoring that discussion.

Well, if you are NOT smart enough to examine the evidence yourself then you are no different to the Christians who accept the words of the SMART bishops of the Church.

There are some SMART people on this very forum who want people to accept their smartness without a shred of corroboration.

If you think you are smart and provide no actual evidence then you may not be.

Now, "On the Contemplative Life" does NOT state anywhere at all that the Therapeutae were Jews or of Jewish origin. And further, it does NOT state anywhere that the Therapeutae lived any where in Judea.

There is NOT one line--Not one sentence--in "On the Contemplative Life" that state the Therapeutae were Jews or of Jewish origin--NONE.

In the History of the Jews from Adam to the end of the 1st century No sect of the JEWS was identified as the Therapeutae.

There may be Billions of Smart People who have NO corroboration--No evidence at all for their smartness.

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 11:09 AM

Notice also the discrepancies between the MT and the LXX with respect to dates. Must have occurred after the calendar had fallen out of use.

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 11:15 AM

Look how primitive this system was according to Sacchi:

Quote:

This conception of the relationship between time and space was derived from the so-called astrolabes, all of them dating to before 1000 BCE. These astrolabes divided the sky into twelve equal parts, called months, each of them subdivided into thirty days, for a total of 360 days. The horizon, therefore, was divided into 360 degrees. Mul Apin's compilation, composed around the year 700 BCE follows along these lines, though Mul Apin's system is more elaborate. There are 12 signs, because there are 12 months in the schematic year of Mul Apin. The signs were made of made of equal length in order to get months of equal duration: they were divided into 30 degrees each because the schematic months were supposed to contain 30 days each.” This calendar uses the stars as points of reference, but its 360 days are in reality the 360 degrees of the horizon. It is a “perfect” calendar since it is built around the stars.

Yes this is the most primitive expression of the Jewish religion. And notice Sacchi also says that the dates of Ezekiel's visions are tied to specific days of the week of this calendar:

Quote:

Ezekiel accepted such a calendar and adapted it to his theology. The important thing is not that his visions took place on a Friday or a Sunday, but the fact that he considered it important, that he took note of it and consecrated it to memory.

Actually this is very reminiscent of the Therapeutae insofar as specific days of the week were devoted to visionary experiences. As Sacchi notes since the calendar was connected to the stars, the underlying sense was that they were 'in harmony' with patterns in the universe. Fascinating stuff.

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 11:22 AM

Yes, thank you spin. This clearly settles the context of the Therapeutae's gatherings. They were reflections of the original system which dated back to Ezekiel and beyond (probably going back to something Babylonian). As Sacchi again notes in his paper:

Quote:

Apparently, for Ezekiel the week was not simply a period of seven days, but rather the earthly projection of a cosmic structure, the structure of creation. Sacred and profane, past and future, history and prophecy take on values that they had not had before. God had revealed himself on earth to the great prophets of the past. Ezekiel, in exile, had visions from beyond the heavens (Ezek 1:1).

The Therapeutae, their 364 day calendar and their regular gatherings on specific days of the week to receive visions goes back to the most primitive expression of Judaism.

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02-10-2013, 10:46 AM	#802
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Here, I found this. http://books.google.com/books?id=DpF...day%22&f=false. Very cool. I always love uncovering incontrovertible evidence for divergent Israelite practices.

02-10-2013, 10:50 AM	#803
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Yes. The key is that 364 can be divided by 7. I am going to read this now. But the greater question for the history of religion is whether the Jewish (and sectarian Samaritan interest) in the year beginning in the seventh month is simply a product of Babylonian influence or whether it goes back to these communities. It never made sense to me why the Pentateuch was written with a spring beginning of the year in mind but Jewish religion switched over to a seventh day beginning. Very interesting questions. Far more interesting than debating with ----- about Buddhist and Asclepian influence over the Therapeutae.

02-10-2013, 10:52 AM	#804
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The Samaritans to this day avoid using the Babylonian names of the months. Like the days, 'month one' (although they will use names used in the Pentateuch to describe the first month).

02-10-2013, 11:01 AM	#806
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Yes, this is perfect. It underscores how this system originally worked and was related to Ezekiel. When the Jews fled with Ptolemy they must have taken this system to Alexandria and whatever religious tradition eventually dominated the Jewish temple later, the system became associated with the displaced Sadducean community who preserved the DSS material. The relationship between the Therapeutae and the Essenes may have been direct (i.e. that they were a sect of the Essenes) or it could well have been indirect (i.e. they all preserved the original calendar). I have somewhere in my library a Brill book called the Secret System by Gerhard Larsson which argues (convincingly I might add) that the Pentateuch was written with three calendars (one lunar, one solar and I forget the third). The solar calendar was essential to the new religion. All of which makes it odd that the Jewish religion went over to a Babylonian and more primitive lunar based calendar. So too the Samaritans (albeit without the names of months). Was this just a product of the 'gutter' religion (i.e. the religion of the rabble) taking over? That they Sadducees, the traditional knowledgeable minds, the 'preservers' of a secret system (or one which wasn't shared with the rabble) ended up losing power? That's my guess. But why? Why wouldn't the Romans have continued to favor the ruling class?

02-10-2013, 11:09 AM	#808
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Notice also the discrepancies between the MT and the LXX with respect to dates. Must have occurred after the calendar had fallen out of use.

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