Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-11-2012, 06:34 PM

Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus:A Memoir of a Discovery by Thomas L. Brodie

Amazon link for preorder (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Quote:

The primary literary model behind the gospels, Brodie argues, is the biblical account of Elijah and Elisha, as R.E. Brown already saw in 1971. In this fascinating memoir of his life journey, Tom Brodie, Irishman, Dominican priest, and biblical scholar, recounts the steps he has taken, in an eventful life in many countries, to his conclusion that the New Testament account of Jesus is essentially a rewriting of the Septuagint version of the Hebrew Bible, or, in some cases, of earlier New Testament texts....

The work of tracing literary indebtedness and art is far from finished but it is already possible and necessary to draw a conclusion: it is that, bluntly, Jesus did not exist as a historical individual. This is not as negative as may at first appear. In a deeply personal coda, Brodie begins to develop a new vision of Jesus as an icon of God’s presence in the world and in human history.

This sounds like a return to gnosticism

Toto · 08-11-2012, 06:40 PM

Brodie has previously published The Birthing of the New Testament: The Intertextual Development of the New Testament Writings (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Google Books preview

Vorkosigan · 08-12-2012, 12:14 AM

Thanks Toto. Yet another blow to Ehrman's specious construction that mythicism is about angry atheists and he's in the reasonable middle. Curious to see what Brodie says about Paul....

maryhelena · 08-12-2012, 12:48 AM

My first though was, oh my, the man is going to loose his job. (Thomas L. Brodie is Director, Dominican Biblical Centre, Limerick, Ireland.) But after having a look at the Dominican Biblical Centre webpage and the Centre's Vision statement, perhaps not....

Quote:

http://www.dbil.ie/vision.html

VISION & MISSION

By highlighting literary issues, as biblical studies have begun to do since the 1970s, there is an opportunity, as never before, to clarify the basics—the very nature of the text (its roots in other texts, and the artistry of its final form)—before undertaking questions of theology and history.

<snip>

Against this background the Dominican Biblical Institute in Limerick sets out to contribute to the basic task of clarifying the literary roots and the literary shaping of the text. It is like seeking to clarify foundations, somewhat similar to the role of archaeology in uncovering the foundations of history—a role undertaken unflinchingly by Jerusalem’s Ecole Biblique. The full name says Ecole Biblique et Archaeologique.

Within its own scale, the Dominican Biblical Institute in Limerick does likewise. It welcomes all serious methods of interpretation—theological, historical, and literary, including all their subdivisions and associated disciplines, spiritual, textual, archaeological, form-critical, rhetorical, feminist, social, political, and ideological—but there is a special need now for a form of archaeology that is literary—an unflinching willingness to uncover literary roots, however far back they may go, and to trace literary artistry, wherever it may lead.

my bolding

Highly commendable if followed through....

And from Ireland of all places...."Jesus did not exist as a historical individual."

[T2]When the soul of a man is born in this country there are nets flung at it to hold it back from flight. You talk to me of nationality, language, religion. I shall try to fly by those nets.

James Joyce (1882-1941), Irish author. Stephen Dedalus, in A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, ch. 5 (1916).[/T2]

aa5874 · 08-12-2012, 12:53 AM

Please, let us NOT judge a book by its cover. It is most remarkable that people here are eager to ridicule Ehrman BEFORE the book is even in circulation.

Ehrman's book "Did Jesus Exist?" was expected to present a very good argument for an historical Jesus but is now seen as an utter failure.

Please, just because someone claims Jesus did NOT exist does NOT mean that they have presented a good argument.

I have noticed that so-called Scholars whether MJ or HJ have refused to investigate the Pauline writings and are continuously PRESUMING without corroboration that the Jesus story originated in the 1st century when NOT one shred of evidence can be found and that the Pauline writer composed letters to Churches before c 70 CE.

1. The Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE PREDATE the Entire NT Canon.

2. The short gMark PREDATE all other writings in the Canon.

3. Revelation by John PREDATE the Pauline writings.

4. The Pauline writings are 2nd century or later writings.

5. The Jesus cult of Christians was started sometime in the 2nd century.

Even if it is claimed Jesus did NOT exist it is also IMPERATIVE that one establish the chronology of the NT writings.

It is most disturbing to me that so-called Scholars whether MJor HJ appear to have NO intention of exposing the historical problems of Paul and the Pauline letters.

Duvduv · 08-12-2012, 02:07 AM

The "evidence" that there was a Christian aect in the second cwntury is extremely flimsy, being based on the assumptions about the dating of texts by heresiologists for which there is no corroboration and which is contradictory and illogical when examined in context.

PhilosopherJay · 08-12-2012, 05:45 AM

Hi maryhelena,

Yes, Ireland of all places.

Still, we must admit the Irish do know a thing or two about fiction writing and inventing stories.

Quote:

—Mr Dedalus!

Running after me. No more letters, I hope.

—Just one moment.

—Yes, sir, Stephen said, turning back at the gate.

Mr Deasy halted, breathing hard and swallowing his breath.

—I just wanted to say, he said. Ireland, they say, has the honour of being the only country which never persecuted the jews. Do you know that? No. And do you know why?

He frowned sternly on the bright air.

—Why, sir? Stephen asked, beginning to smile.

—Because she never let them in, Mr Deasy said solemnly.

A coughball of laughter leaped from his throat dragging after it a rattling chain of phlegm. He turned back quickly, coughing, laughing, his lifted arms waving to the air.

—She never let them in, he cried again through his laughter as he stamped on gaitered feet over the gravel of the path. That's why.

from Ulysses, James Joyce, Chapter 2: Nestor

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

My first though was, oh my, the man is going to loose his job. (Thomas L. Brodie is Director, Dominican Biblical Centre, Limerick, Ireland.) But after having a look at the Dominican Biblical Centre webpage and the Centre's Vision statement, perhaps not....

Quote:

http://www.dbil.ie/vision.html

VISION & MISSION

By highlighting literary issues, as biblical studies have begun to do since the 1970s, there is an opportunity, as never before, to clarify the basics—the very nature of the text (its roots in other texts, and the artistry of its final form)—before undertaking questions of theology and history.

<snip>

Against this background the Dominican Biblical Institute in Limerick sets out to contribute to the basic task of clarifying the literary roots and the literary shaping of the text. It is like seeking to clarify foundations, somewhat similar to the role of archaeology in uncovering the foundations of history—a role undertaken unflinchingly by Jerusalem’s Ecole Biblique. The full name says Ecole Biblique et Archaeologique.

Within its own scale, the Dominican Biblical Institute in Limerick does likewise. It welcomes all serious methods of interpretation—theological, historical, and literary, including all their subdivisions and associated disciplines, spiritual, textual, archaeological, form-critical, rhetorical, feminist, social, political, and ideological—but there is a special need now for a form of archaeology that is literary—an unflinching willingness to uncover literary roots, however far back they may go, and to trace literary artistry, wherever it may lead.

my bolding

Highly commendable if followed through....

And from Ireland of all places...."Jesus did not exist as a historical individual."

[T2]When the soul of a man is born in this country there are nets flung at it to hold it back from flight. You talk to me of nationality, language, religion. I shall try to fly by those nets.

James Joyce (1882-1941), Irish author. Stephen Dedalus, in A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, ch. 5 (1916).[/T2]

maryhelena · 08-12-2012, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi maryhelena,

Yes, Ireland of all places.

Still, we must admit the Irish do know a thing or two about fiction writing and inventing stories.

Quote:

—Mr Dedalus!

Running after me. No more letters, I hope.

—Just one moment.

—Yes, sir, Stephen said, turning back at the gate.

Mr Deasy halted, breathing hard and swallowing his breath.

—I just wanted to say, he said. Ireland, they say, has the honour of being the only country which never persecuted the jews. Do you know that? No. And do you know why?

He frowned sternly on the bright air.

—Why, sir? Stephen asked, beginning to smile.

—Because she never let them in, Mr Deasy said solemnly.

A coughball of laughter leaped from his throat dragging after it a rattling chain of phlegm. He turned back quickly, coughing, laughing, his lifted arms waving to the air.

—She never let them in, he cried again through his laughter as he stamped on gaitered feet over the gravel of the path. That's why.

from Ulysses, James Joyce, Chapter 2: Nestor

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Nice one, Jay...

And it served the Jews well......look what happened to the English when they were let in...........:constern01: Best to leave Ireland to the Irish...

Actually, I've often thought there is a connection between the Irish and the Jews - both have a commitment to their land that flies in the face of any logical explanation. Not just the nationalistic element - the romanticizing of the land, as with the Irish, and the theological/prophetic implications imputed to the land, re the Jews. I suppose, at the end of the day, we have to put down our two feet somewhere - so terra firma is, in reality, in our human experience, sacred ground.

So, with Thomas Brodie's acceptance of the fact that "Jesus did not exist as a historical individual.", its a fine day to be Irish. Shame, I've no Baileys in the house...:biggrin:

[T2]I confess that I do not see what good it does to fulminate against the English tyranny while the Roman tyranny occupies the palace of the soul.

James Joyce (1882-1941), Irish author. "Ireland, Island of Saints and Sages," lecture, 27 April 1907, Università Popolare Triestina (published in Critical Writings, sct. 35, ed. by Ellsworth Mason and Richard Ellmann, 1959).[/T2]

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08-11-2012, 06:40 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Brodie has previously published The Birthing of the New Testament: The Intertextual Development of the New Testament Writings (or via: amazon.co.uk) Google Books preview

08-12-2012, 12:14 AM	#3
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Thanks Toto. Yet another blow to Ehrman's specious construction that mythicism is about angry atheists and he's in the reasonable middle. Curious to see what Brodie says about Paul....

08-12-2012, 12:53 AM	#5
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	Please, let us NOT judge a book by its cover. It is most remarkable that people here are eager to ridicule Ehrman BEFORE the book is even in circulation. Ehrman's book "Did Jesus Exist?" was expected to present a very good argument for an historical Jesus but is now seen as an utter failure. Please, just because someone claims Jesus did NOT exist does NOT mean that they have presented a good argument. I have noticed that so-called Scholars whether MJ or HJ have refused to investigate the Pauline writings and are continuously PRESUMING without corroboration that the Jesus story originated in the 1st century when NOT one shred of evidence can be found and that the Pauline writer composed letters to Churches before c 70 CE. 1. The Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE PREDATE the Entire NT Canon. 2. The short gMark PREDATE all other writings in the Canon. 3. Revelation by John PREDATE the Pauline writings. 4. The Pauline writings are 2nd century or later writings. 5. The Jesus cult of Christians was started sometime in the 2nd century. Even if it is claimed Jesus did NOT exist it is also IMPERATIVE that one establish the chronology of the NT writings. It is most disturbing to me that so-called Scholars whether MJor HJ appear to have NO intention of exposing the historical problems of Paul and the Pauline letters.

08-12-2012, 02:07 AM	#6
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	The "evidence" that there was a Christian aect in the second cwntury is extremely flimsy, being based on the assumptions about the dating of texts by heresiologists for which there is no corroboration and which is contradictory and illogical when examined in context.

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