Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

You said that the Bible indicates that the Jews will not be kicked out of Palestine again. Which Scriptures are you referring to?

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

First of all Palestine does not exist, Israel exists.

Let me put it another way: What evidence to do you have that the partition of Palestine was a fulfillment of Bible prophecy?

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

Second of all, won't any scriptures that refer to this be self-fulfilled prophecies anyways?

Based upon the evidence that you have provided so far, yes, but I would not be arguing that the Partition of Palestine is a self-fulfilled prophecy if you had provided reasonable evidence that the Partition of Palestine could not have happened without God's help.

It is easy to prove that the Partition of Palestine was not fair since if Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Hitler and other parties had persecuted Palestians instead of Jews, there is no way that the U.S. and Britain would have agreed to giving the Palestinians control of Jerusalem, and would have agreed that the Palestians should have gotten a grossly disproportionate amount of land per capita like the Jews got. As far as I recall, the original partition granted the Jews two thirds of Palestine even though the Palestinians were much more numerous.

Sheshonq · 01-20-2008, 08:56 PM

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

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Originally Posted by spin

I love how a supposedly moral person can blindly support terrorism, genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid as means of a prophecy being fulfilled.

I suppose in your revisionist history textbook

Who said anything about revisionism?

The reality is you don't know Jewish history. All you know is a 30 second speech that someone told you. And you repeat it over and over, hoping to convince yourself.

Sheshonq · 01-20-2008, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

You said that the Bible indicates that the Jews will not be kicked out of Palestine again. Which Scriptures are you referring to?

First of all Palestine does not exist, Israel exists.

In point of fact, Palestine does exist. Better get used to reality.

arnoldo · 01-20-2008, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

You said that the Bible indicates that the Jews will not be kicked out of Palestine again. Which Scriptures are you referring to?

Sorry, Jerusalem is the eternal undivided capital of Israel ever since the time of King David to this very moment.

Quote:

"The word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying, Thus says the Lord of hosts; I was zealous for Zion with great zeal, and I was zealous for her with great fury. Thus says the Lord: I have returned to Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; and Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the Holy Mountain. Thus says the Lord of hosts: Old men and old women shall again dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for the fullness of days. And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in its streets. Thus says the Lord of hosts: If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvelous in my eyes? says the Lord of hosts. Thus says the Lord of hosts: Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness." (Zechariah 8:1-8)

This is called a prophecy,ie,something that will occur in the future. Whether you call it self fulfiled or written after the fact makes no difference, it will still happen.

Sheshonq · 01-20-2008, 08:58 PM

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

The UN provisions regarding the division Palestine have never been met. Therefore Palestine still exists. You merely have a de facto occupation of Palestine by Israel. Now answer the question you tried to evade with your deceit.

spin

There is no State of Palestine, sorry, this is a historical fact.

You're in a poor position to be telling us what historical facts are, when you have almost no exposure to history on the topic.

In point of fact, there is one Palestinian govt. already in Gaza.

spin · 01-20-2008, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

The UN provisions regarding the division Palestine have never been met. Therefore Palestine still exists. You merely have a de facto occupation of Palestine by Israel. Now answer the question you tried to evade with your deceit.

There is no State of Palestine, sorry, this is a historical fact.

More deceit. Palestine has a clear geographical, political, and historical reference, which you understand. You are merely finding excuses by quibbling about statehood, not to answer the question posed to you:

You said that the Bible indicates that the Jews will not be kicked out of Palestine again. Which Scriptures are you referring to?

Please answer this question already asked of you.

spin

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

You said that the Bible indicates that the Jews will not be kicked out of Palestine again. Which Scriptures are you referring to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Sorry, Jerusalem is the eternal undivided capital of Israel ever since the time of King David to this very moment.

But Genesis 17:8 does not say anything about Jerusalem. Do you have any evidence that the Partition of Palestine was a fulfillment of Bible prophecy or not? If so, please be advised that no matter what you say, I will always return to Genesis 17:8, which is the foundational Scripture regarding the restoration of the Jewish nation. Genesis 17:8 says that God promised Abraham all of the land of Canaan. You said that Jews have never occupied all of the land of Canaan. Aside from the fact that you did not provide any evidence that backed that up because you know that there isn't any, if Jews have never occupied all of the land of Canaan, then it is impossible for them to restore what they never had.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 09:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: How could God's land promise to Abraham have been conditional upon good behavior if God knew that the behavior of Jews would not be acceptable to him until thousands of years later?

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

You obviously have no understanding of the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic covenant, or the Davidic convenant, or the Bible for that matter. The Jews who are living in the land of Israel this very moment are descendants of Abraham. This is a historical fact.

So what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Since we are living in the "Age of the Gentiles" Israel has not yet fulfilled it's prophecy, i.e., something that will happen in the future.

But that does not have anything whatsoever to do with why the Jews have never occupied all of Canaan. Do you or do you not believe that Old Testament Jews believed that God's land promise was conditional upon good behavior? Why would God have made a land promise to Abraham that he did not intend to validate until thousands of years later? All that that would have accomplished would have been to confuse and bait the Jews with a promise that God had not intention of keeping until thousands of years later.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 09:31 PM

Message to arnoldo: I have made this post on a number of occasions, and you have continued to conveniently avoid replying to it because you do not want to embarrass yourself. That is ok because the undecided crowd, who for the most part are the only people who both sides have a chance to influence, are not impressed with evasiveness, and they usually consider the side who is not evasive to be the winner. Even if you still refuse to reply to these arguments, I will still consistently post them, even for years if necessary. That way, new people who read this thread will find out that I demolished you with the arguments in this post.

Ok, here are the arguments:

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

The Arabs have always started the wars.

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Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

No they haven't. This all started when Abraham wrongfully stole land from the Canaanites.

The partition of Palestine allowed the Jews to control Jerusalem, and an unfairly disproportionate amount of land based upon land per capita, and yet you claim that the Arabs have always stated the wars. A much more equitable solution would have been joint control of Jerusalem, or dividing Jerusalem in half.

The most important war is the unfair and unnecessary war that God wages not only against skeptics, but also against Jews and Christians. Why would God give Jews parts of Palestine and kill them by various means such as parasites and cancer viruses?

Australia has a very small population, and it is very large. Most of the population lives near the ocean. Now what better place could there have been for God to set up a Jewish nation than in the middle of Australia, with no hatred, and not bloodshed?

The only reason that Jews and Arabs have ever had any problems is because God made sure that they were in the same places at the same times. This is analogous to the detestible, unlawful practice of cockfighting. Cocks would not fight unless humans put them in the same places at the same times.

Why do animals injure and kill each other in disputes over food, territory, and mates? Obviously, because God unfairly and unnecessarily puts them in the same places at the same times.

Now are you going to tell us that if Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Hitler and other parties had persecuted Palestinians instead of Jews, that the U.S. would have approved of the Palestinians getting control of Jerusalem and a grossly disproportionate amount of land based upon the amount of land per person? If not, then you have to admit that the Partition of Palestine is a bona fide example of a self-fulfilled prophecy. No rational person would ever claim that the Bible did not have anything to do with the U.S.'s and the British's interests in the Partition of Palestine.

I do not blame you for refusing to reply to those arguments since you know that you lost hands down.

If God wanted Jews to have a homeland, if he is loving, he could easily have provided them with land in a remote area, or he could have given them enough money to purchase Canaan from the Canaanites. The God who you worship is a God of war, not a God of peace. After all, he has killed more people with parasites alone than all of the wars in history. By comparison, the number of people who Hitler and Stalin killed are not even worth mentioning.
At least Hitler and Stalin did not kill people indiscriminately like God does. Indiscriminate killing is good evidence that God is evil, amoral, mentally incompetent, or a benevolent but inept bungler who failed in his attempts to create a much better world than the world that he created.

Jack the Bodiless · 01-21-2008, 01:58 AM

...Wow! 22 pages and we STILL don't have a single verse from the Bible which specifically "prophesies" the re-emergence of Israel! (...THIS time around: verses relating to the return after the Babylonian Exile don't count).

As uaual, all we have are excuses for the repeated failure of "God's promise".

Apparently the advocates of "prophecy" still want to blame the Jews for all the earlier failures (even when the specific "prophecies" are not described as conditional), and yet they also want to imagine that THIS time Israel is here to stay. Yet the Jews would presumably have thought the same after the return from Babylon: obviously such assurances are worthless. If Israel is destroyed next month, then presumably the time of Israel's "permanent existence" hasn't started yet...

It's especially ironic that Christians are making this claim. Israel is populated by those who (supposedly) rejected Jesus! Why isn't this an example of exactly the same sort of inappropriate behavior that caused "God's promise" to fail in the past?

The Bible is riddled with scientific and historical errors, internal contradictions, failed prophecies and barbaric teachings. Against this, there is... nothing: not a single verifiably-fulfilled prophecy or equivalent sign of "divine inspiration".

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01-21-2008, 01:58 AM	#550
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	...Wow! 22 pages and we STILL don't have a single verse from the Bible which specifically "prophesies" the re-emergence of Israel! (...THIS time around: verses relating to the return after the Babylonian Exile don't count). As uaual, all we have are excuses for the repeated failure of "God's promise". Apparently the advocates of "prophecy" still want to blame the Jews for all the earlier failures (even when the specific "prophecies" are not described as conditional), and yet they also want to imagine that THIS time Israel is here to stay. Yet the Jews would presumably have thought the same after the return from Babylon: obviously such assurances are worthless. If Israel is destroyed next month, then presumably the time of Israel's "permanent existence" hasn't started yet... It's especially ironic that Christians are making this claim. Israel is populated by those who (supposedly) rejected Jesus! Why isn't this an example of exactly the same sort of inappropriate behavior that caused "God's promise" to fail in the past? The Bible is riddled with scientific and historical errors, internal contradictions, failed prophecies and barbaric teachings. Against this, there is... nothing: not a single verifiably-fulfilled prophecy or equivalent sign of "divine inspiration".

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